Jeremy Ambrum: Good evening everyone. Welcome to the National Library. National Library of Australia acknowledges Australia's First Nations peoples, the first Australians as the traditional owners and custodians of this land, and give respects to elders past and present and through them to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

Welcome everybody to the 2023 Deadly Dialogues where we celebrate and showcase First Nations peoples and their journeys. My name is Jeremy Ambrum. I'm an Yidinji man from North Queensland and the Programme Manager for indigenous Engagement here at the National Library.

Now you may be already familiar with our guests tonight. They're all over social media. Thank you for everyone tuning in online as well. We're here to share some of the country's prolific photographers of our time and we're very lucky and grateful to have them here and join us tonight. So I'm just going to start introducing everyone.

I want to start with Yamaji, Wajarri and Ngapuhi man from Port Headland, raised in Geraldton, moved from an aboriginal medical service to the mines and then seven years in the Royal Australian Navy. First picking up a camera in that during the 2020 Black Lives Matter protest to shooting the AFL Western Trophy Tour and now working for the National Indigenous Times in Melbourne, Tamati Smith.

Djugun-Yawuru man from the beautiful Broome, Western Australia with connections to the Gooniyandi/Jabbir Jabbir/Ngarluma people, a true visual artist on many mediums and a poet. His photography draws on his own stories and personal history and explores contemporary and social political issues facing indigenous people with work spanning all over the world. The co-founder, or the Founder actually, of the Black Lens Directory, to share and create opportunities for First Nations photographers. Michael Jalaru Torres.

Gunggari woman, her mother’s family are from South Central Queensland around Mitchell and the Maranoa River. Raised up on Yolngu Country in Arnhem Land in the mining town of Nhulunbuy. ABC trained radio broadcaster and producer, and a regular on the Melbourne events scene for a number of years. From archival documentary to First Nations cultural events, works as diverse as their interests in the world and around her. Tiffany Garvie.

Tasmanian mob. From tiling to chimneys sweeps. If you've got a chimney in Canberra, this fella probably swept them. The Royal Australian Navy picked up a amerac in Hong Kong just to capture culture and has continued on that for 30 years. And another book to come soon. Wayne Quilliam.

Mungindi woman, Murri, a leader in our photography industry in the boys club, the AFL, NRL, sports photographer, boxing titles, the strong, the deadly. Aunty Barbara McGrady who joins us here online through a Zoom and you'll see her soon. Aunty Barbara, if you could just lift your camera up so we can see your face as well.

And then the prince of photography, Mr Mervyn Bishop himself. If you're not familiar with Uncle Mervyn now, it's too late. He's too good. He's too deadly and we're really, really lucky and grateful to have him here tonight. He's got all the stories and then yarns to tell.

And finally, Dharabuladh man, a beautiful facilitator for tonight from the National Gallery of Australia, Mr Ian RT Colless. Thank you everyone. Onto Ian.

Ian RT Colless: Good afternoon and good evening I believe for our people here on this side of this nation known as Australia. My name is Ian RT Colless. And as Jeremy has noted, I am a very proud member of the Dharabuladh clan of the Gundungurra people, which informs everything I do and everything I will do. And is foundational to every aspect of my cultural, spiritual, and professional pursuits. I am indeed fortunate to be here this evening to be in the pleasure and the company and all of those gorgeous things with all of these wonderful, beautiful cultural practitioners, arts workers and artists that are really making sure that they're profiling and platforming their community and all of those things. And those contributions are incredibly worthwhile and particularly considering the natural and the most important signature of this nation is cultural expression. And that cultural expression has links to the oldest and most continuous cultural expressions in the world. Indeed, the known universe.

I would like to personally express my deepest gratitude on behalf of the photographers to the National Library and also express my deep respect to the country in which we're in today and pay my respects to the Ngunnawal and Ngambri.
In talking to elders, it is my pleasure to extend the first question to Uncle Merv. Uncle Merv, what advice would you give your younger self?

Mervyn Bishop: Thank you. I grew up in a little town called Brewarrina in western New South Wales, early days. My mother used to take photographs and I used to borrow her camera and get out there and take pictures and she'd get a bit angry about some of the pictures I'd taken. But it grew. And I was always keen about it. Someone had a little dark room. The first time into a dark room watching the prince come up in the developer I was smitten from that point on. So we're looking back into about 1956. And I used her camera, then I had some money and I bought a camera, 35 mil camera, which I believe cost me 15 pounds. I saved money from my school bank. And she said, whatcha you going do with that? I said, take photographs mum.

And because there were slides, how we going to look at them? Someone had a slight projector. We used to have slide evenings out in the back on the lawn with a sheet and someone's borrowed projector and mom would put on cup of tea and make scones and biscuits or whatever and half the street would come along. And for some years I went to school in Dubbo for about 3 years. And then early days, 1963, I came to Sydney, went to Sydney, and halfway through 63 I got a cadetship at 'The Sydney Morning Herald' Fairfax and I all up 18 years there as a press photographer.

Of course I was only black one. My dear friend Roberta Soke said, oh Merv, you're the lone ranger. I said, but I don't have a toto to ride with me through this journey. But I lasted. It was at good times, bad times.

Six, seven years here in Canberra working for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs that got me right around Australia really, taking pictures of our people in where they lived and how they lived. My thought was to take pictures of what they had. Maybe the department would upgrade their living conditions towards good health, employment and education. I mean some of it's worked in places and other places it hasn't, but that's the way it is. You can't sort of click your fingers and make things happen overnight.

And these days I'm sort of not taking photographs. I've got an agent in Sydney and he looks after my library, my what's the word? Collection. And through the Art Gallery of New South Wales and State Library, exhibitions, one recent one here in Canberra was at the National Film and Sound Archive and was, I believe was it was well received and I think, oh, we'll go back to Canberra for another one. And I mean there's some of my images right here in the National Library of Australia and I'm so proud of that. And all these are early pictures, mainly black and white.

I trained on 'Sydney Morning Herald' speed graphic cameras, great big things. Then we went to 35 millimetre neons, but I got out of it then. And then now the days of the digital cameras are in and you think about what would you have done if you'd had a digital camera back then? It's clear, clear question I guess.

But it's sort of how I've gone about what I did. Well, when you're going into an Aboriginal community or something to take photographs for whatever reason or whatever company, whatever department, the thing that I used to front up with is that I would always ask before I took any photographs, so to get respect, respect from them for me. And I mean they had the right to say, well, we don't want any, you may leave Merv. And that did happen a couple of times. But then next day they said, come back, come back, come back, come back. We didn't really mean that, but we were angry. And I said, well, I understand that. So I said, I'll take any pictures that you want me to take as long as it will help you. And I was getting paid for it anyway, but that was my big deal. I said, I wanted to get pictures of you now because a lot of those people have gone. Some places you go to and you do portraits of people and they've since passed and they'll bring up, find out, they'll say, Mervy, can we get auntie such a photo of aunty for the funeral? They wanted to put it on the coffin so that would be, could remember her. They'd say, well, Mervyn Bishop took that picture and they'd say, yes, brother, good job. And it's remembering the people.

Some people don't like to have photographs taken, right. Well and good. My daughter, well she's in her thirties, she's pretty, but she gets a bit shy about having her photograph taken. But her children, they love it. And I've got a son in Sydney, they just love getting their photographs taken. So I don't want to go on too long about all sorts of things, but you were going to ask me a little question about my days of my life. And I could go on for quite a while. Oh, by the way, a friend in he's retired journalist who used to work for Reuters in Washington, a chap called Tim Dobbin and he's writing a book about me. So it's nearly done. All we've got to do is secure publisher to get it out for everyone to enjoy.

Ian RT Colless: So you're looking for a publisher?

Mervyn Bishop: We are.

Ian RT Colless: Just putting it out there.

Mervyn Bishop: Just a little request. So that's kind of about my lot. I've had a few health issues, wear were a necklace. I was at hometown, Brewarrina last year and I had had a stroke and so I got to wear this little necklace. So I fall down in will come the helicopter and take me away. But as you're getting older, I was a 45 model, year of 45. I always say that I was born during the war and I was born in 24th of July, 1945. And I said, I was born during the war and they go, oh really? And so I'm 77 and who knows, maybe I might get as old as Merl Haggard, he got the 79. So enough of me I think

Ian RT Colless: And how lucky we are that you're around Uncle and thank you so so much for your contributions because it's people like our elders and our people who have fought and worked to make sure that they position our culture fought that we can stand here today. And it's important to recognise and deeply pay a lot of deep respect to that Uncle. So thank you for your contributions and we'll continue those conversations. Talking about maturity, Tiffany, loaded, what inspired you to start photography professionally and what drew you to it as a mature adult?

Tiffany Garvie: Yeah, that was a bit of a slow burn. I quite like this question. It's becoming interested in photography, picked up a camera in the seventies and sort of took it as a hobby through the eighties and then didn't become a professional photographer until probably about a decade ago. And if you sort of turn professional by the time you start getting paid for the work you're doing that makes you a professional. Started getting paid for what I was doing about 10 years ago. That was a bit of a slow burn. It didn't happen overnight. Becoming a very passionate photographer from this is something I really love doing to something, this is something I need to do. Becoming a compulsion to actually go out and shoot as opposed to just something you want to go out and do.

I moved to Melbourne and picked up the camera again in 2008 after a little bit of a break and started documenting a lot of the marches around town, some of the protests, a lot of the activity, a lot of the cultural events, getting behind the scenes and documenting some of the cultural events, the rehearsals and the stories and the faces behind and the names behind putting some of these events together. So really being able to find a foot within Melbourne and Victoria and start documenting some of that First Nations cultural archive and collecting the images and stories that go with that. And that's sort of how I got started in the photography in the community in Melbourne.

Prior to that it was a lot of landscape work, getting out and doing stuff that really interested me finding opportunity to get out of town, take a drive and spend a day in the bush and getting your toes dirty and getting your feet back on country.

So that was a process to a point where the community I work I was doing and the marches I was documenting and the ceremony content that I was documenting led to, would you like to come and photograph an event and we'll pay you for it. So it was a process of gradually building my skill. But more than that, building my confidence and chatting with people like Wayne very early on before I started getting paid and other photographers like James Henry who was the first person to actually refer work to me. For anyone who doesn't know James Henry is another photographer in Melbourne, very well established First Nation photographer.

And so over sort of the last decade I was doing the professional paid work on the side and on the 1st of February this year I am a fully fledged photographer. I don't have any other income, this is it for me. And as a, stepping into that in your fifties, it's a bit of a leap, but at the same time it's like I don't have kids at home, I don't have anything else at home other than my wonderful partner. Hopefully he's watching. Hi babe. And just finding that time now to actually establish myself. I spent a decade establishing myself, but now actually going out there and saying, this is what I do and this is who I am.

And as an adult actually having the confidence and the life experience and the lived experience to be able to navigate some of those conversations and negotiations around business that actually comes with being a professional. And not finding myself at the wrong end of a contract or at the wrong end of a copyright agreement or at the wrong end. So being able to have the confidence to negotiate that sort of aspect of the photography world as well as a professional. And I think had I done that in my late teens or my early twenties, I might have been a little more naive around some of the stuff that's actually been put in front of me that I've pushed back and gone, no, we need to talk about this bit.

So that has been a process and it doesn't happen in isolation. It does happen with a lot of support. The job that I was working full time was with an arts organisation. They gave me the room and the space and the time off to actually go and do photography and take the paid work on the side if it clashed with my daytime employment or if the job an event that finished at two o'clock in the morning, they allowed me to start late work the next day. And having that support was incredibly important from that perspective as well. So coming in as an adult and again having that confidence and experience to actually go to an employer and go, look, this is really what I love doing. I want to make more time in my life for this. How can we work that? And I don't know if my younger self would've done that. I dunno that I would've had the confidence to do that. So that's one of the good things that come out of it coming into it at this age.

Ian RT Colless: That's very special.

Tiffany Garvie: Yeah, thank you.

Ian RT Colless: And it's a common, I work in capacity development a lot and a common characteristic about people is that there is a real need where people, I'm constantly in [unclear] pushing people forward and it's certainly something that I've had the privilege of seeing with some of my contemporaries like Steven Brown and a whole bunch of people. Because it's really important that we push others forward and remind each other of their capability of their unique, what's so unique about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture is our ability, but you see it with our elders. They've got a unique ability to fine tune strength-based, multi intellectual ways of working with our culture and other individuals within that culture. And when you are working from that strength-based way of working in cultural and human and spiritual development, you're better able to have the person understand who they are in relationship to others rather than a box off the shelf,, fit this become a lawyer, sort of approach.

It's really important and it makes sure that the viability of our culture is really continuing that momentum forward. So that's really great to hear that you're sitting there and negotiating that and pushing back. What I find interesting about what you and Uncle Merv have talked about and certainly conversations that Jeremy who was done a wonderful introduction with National Library and I have had over the last several weeks. Is that something that's so, which leads me to the next question we're going to explore, is that something that's so characteristic of all of these photographers and a large amount of, and this is what Jeremy and I were exploring, a large amount of Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander photographers so far, is that this process of archiving and taking photos of gatherings and being in the context of ceremony being the context of community. Which you'd explored and showing up and being seen and taking those pictures. And it's interesting because of that you're starting to see people like Merv where you are now having to give back information to those people because it's becoming a treasure trove of those moments, of those milestones, of those gatherings. It's really interesting. Which leads me to my next question with the wonderful Aunty Barb who's streaming in somewhere and who did a gorgeous job photographing the Rabbitohs, go the rabbitohs! And yes, and Auntie Barb. Can you hear me Aunt? Can you hear me okay?

Barbara McGrady: I can hear you.

Ian RT Colless: Okey dokey. Considering the depth and diversity of your Yeah. Aunty, you can't hear me now? I feel like Steven.

Barbara McGrady: I can't hear you at all.

Ian RT Colless: You can't hear me at all. How about, can you hear me now? Well, let's move on to the next question and maybe Benjamin, we could call in on a phone or is that all right, let's keep going forward.

Barbara McGrady: Okay, I lost you again.

Ian RT Colless: That's all right Aunt, we're going to follow that up. Here we are. Can you hear me? No, she's lost. Shall we move on to the next question? Yes. Okay. Ah, that's the sound of the last three years, isn't it? Zoom, switch off. You are on mute. You are on mute. That's the reality of COVID-19 and I understand why it's COVID-19. We're in 2023. So the next question is to Tamati.

Tamati Smith: Tamati yeah.

Ian RT Colless: Tamati, I've said it right.

Tamati Smith: Yeah, that's right.

Ian RT Colless: I have chronic dyslexia. I got very nervous about his name and he's a wonderful man. My question to you is what are the positives and the challenges photographing with community that you've found? Particularly what are the positive and the challenges to photograph the positives and the challenges in photographing with your own community?

Tamati Smith: That's a good question. Thanks for answering that one. So I just wanted to clear up a bit about my initial bio that came up as well. I no longer work for the 'National Indigenous Times'. There was a.

Ian RT Colless: You no longer work with the 'National Indigenous Times'.

Tamati Smith: No, I ended up moving back into freelance work now. And I'm still continue on with that work there. But what are some of the positives that when it comes to working with community, it especially my own community, it's actually given me a really good opportunity as a photographer to sit there and listen to my elders and have them tell me some of their stories that I wouldn't actually have taken the time to sit down and listen to in the past. The reason being is because now I'm really interested in my own community, our local stories that we have back home now and then how that has impacted the future generations that come from that there also.

And then some of the negatives as well is these family members and these other community members that I'm photographing are usually quite old as well. So I get a bit upset thinking that these portraits that I'll be taking of these people will be the last photographs that they have and will be used on the eulogies also. So it makes me sad to know that they were holding onto these photos and waiting, which had happened very recently when one of the aunties passed away back home there. My mum reached out and just said like, Hey, we need to get that photo that you took. Now it needs to go into the front of the eulogy and be used for that purpose as well. Yeah, so that's one of the negative things.
But then also with me, myself, I haven't been a photographer for very long. It's not something that I've done my whole entire life or had a camera as I was raised, as well as not raised as a teenager or anything like that. I adopted it when I was in the Navy. A friend would do a lot of what the other people are saying, social documentary stuff on board when we're out deployed up north. And I just really liked the photos that she was taking of me specifically.

So that prompted me to go out by my own camera as well. And then from that period after that there I just ran around Sydney in the ending months of my naval career, taking photos at various rallies that were happening. And then from that period I just sort of had a bit of a rollercoaster of a journey, haven't really had a chance to sit down and enjoy this here and being a hobby, anything like that. It's become my full-time job from moving from the Navy to being a photographer now.

And then I've also more positives as well as I've been able to travel around this country in Australia to places that I've never been before to [unclear], and then now throughout Victoria as well. And I'm yarning with different people and listening to their stories as well and seeing how it relates.

It was really interesting to see the language as well that reaches from the central desert to the western coast where I'm from. We use the same word for kangaroo and we use the same word for meat. And I would only have known that through meeting these people from various video and photo projects that I did. So that's one positive as well that I get from photographing.

And another negative as well was my first big press job that I'd ever done was covering a kidnapping in Carnarvon for five days where a young girl was taken and they'd found her fortunately. The man that had kidnapped her was a family member of my family. And I had taken these photos of this man as he was being taken away onto the plane to go down and face justice in Perth. And those photos really impacted me in a way as well because these photos I knew would be used all over Australia. It made the front page of every major newspaper in Australia at the time. And I knew that the commentary surrounding this man and what it means to Aboriginal people wouldn't be very nice commentary. And it made me upset when I took that photo. I ended up walking back to my car afterwards and having a cry before I drove back home. But that cry was cut short by my editor and various other people ringing me congratulating, me saying such how much of an amazing job I did. But I felt almost like I was condemning. I don't know how to word it properly there, but yeah. So anyway, beyond that, so this man as well, because he was a family member for my family, had rang my own mother and questioned her as to why I'm there taking photos of this bloke as well. But I can't be photographing a lot of the negatives. I mean a lot of the positive stuff without getting that negative as well. You need to be able to include both, I believe. I think. Does that answer your question?

Ian RT Colless: It explores the question. There's no answer. That's why we're in creativity and that's wonderful. And like you said, you had no answer. You're sitting in that car and you are just trying to take it all in.

I think from the conversations we're having this morning, I think we must always remind ourselves, particularly as we head forward in this year, that's going to be so extraordinary in relation to its indigenous engagement with its own peoples, that we go to creativity and culture to explore and to find possibility and to find a spectrum of ways of understanding things. It doesn't have to be one answer. And I think that's what's so unique about cultural and artistic expression rather. And it certainly it's there in that story. So thank you. That's a beautiful story to share.

I'm going to see if we can go into Zoom land now, and if not, we can always sing at. Go a cultural way. Hey aunt, can you hear us? Aunty? Can you hear us? No, she can't. No. Okay, so we'll keep moving forward, Wayne. Hey, we just sort of explored this brother with what Tamati was saying. Oh God, it dyslexia is real.

Wayne Quilliam: Three times brother.

Ian RT Colless: Three times. Yes. Is that it's the individual and the community and that is a constant interplay that happens in what we do as cultural practitioners at the forefront. And then artists secondary really, isn't it, perhaps. So the question that I was wondering if you could explore is how does your relationship to the individual or the community inform your photography?

Wayne Quilliam: Yeah, it's a really interesting discussion. When I started many, many years ago trying to find who I was. Actually being a black fellow from Tasmania. We were told from a very young age killed a lot of youse off. And it was a really interesting discussion of trying to find your individuality as well as your spiritual connection. And I found that photography was a perfect vehicle for doing that. I now see myself more as not only as an Aboriginal photographer but as a global storyteller. And the connection that I have not only with our own people but for people around the world. And some of the examples I want to give is not only with our own community and what we're doing, but some of the experiences I've had overseas, which interconnect to what we do here.

I was on assignment in a place called [unclear] in Bolivia, and we were walking up into the mountains and I was photographing the kids who were working, their parents were caught up in, all they did was farm cocaine. So they had no skills, they'd lost their skillset [unclear] raising children, farming, and they were teaching them how to raise chickens and rabbits and cultivate. And I was sitting in there with 'em and this old aunty was sitting in this stone cooking area and she was crying and I didn't understand the language. I had a person there helping me and I said, what happened? And she says, oh, her husband of 70 years died last week, but every day she'd come out and she made the food for the children so they could go to school, so they'd have a feed in their tummy. And she was literally crying into this pot of food that she was making. And out of all respect, I asked would it be okay if I took the photo? And then they explained to them, she looked up and that look of, wow, yes, thank you. It was the connectivity of it that I found that touched me and it come through the lens and it come through the photos. And then after we showed people and we sent the photos back to community, it was such a beautiful narrative that people now connect with that. And the agency I was working with still to this day, 15 years ago, still use it.

We jump now to a recent gig. I was in Morocco and a young photographer come down where we were staying and we were talking had access to, oh, Wayne Quilliam. Oh, we checked out his stuff, cool. We had a yarn with him. And he says, what advice can you give me? What's the connection? What can I do? I want to be a photographer, I want to share our journey. How can I do that? I went through the processes of how I did and he says, well, unfortunately I can't do that because the government restrict us on what we can shoot, what we can share and how we can do it.

So now I'm connecting with him back via social media using modern technology, not to get him into trouble, but to help him guide himself on a new pathway of using photography as a vehicle to share his stories in his culture, but also connect with other people around the world on that experience.

Which then leads us to more our local. I've covered and documented, I don't think there's a community in this country I haven't done work with on so many different levels. All the festivals, all the events, all everything from the Apology to the Bridge Walk. When we saw the bridge walk the other day when we saw Pride March.

Ian RT Colless: 5,000.

Wayne Quilliam: Yeah, well the last time we'd done that was when we walked the bridge.

Ian RT Colless: We were talking about that today weren't we Uncle?

Wayne Quilliam: Yeah.

Ian RT Colless: That was 2000 just before the Olympics for rec week. Yeah, rec week.

Wayne Quilliam: It was, I'll never forget that. We were all toddling across the bridge and all going, what are we doing here? I lost my train of thought. No I haven't, no, I'm coming back. I'm circling back of connection and the importance of relevance to people and country and the spirituality of the images. We were working on another gig up in Arnam Land and we'd flown in for a corporate gig and the idea was to go around and photograph the community in particular for a particular narrative that the corporates wanted.

And as we got off the plane, no one picked us up from the air strip. It's a bloody long walk with a bucket load of gear in 33 degree eight. And I'm sweating my mom off going, oh geez, what am I doing here? We're walking into town with these couple of fellas, and then we look and the town was bare, and I could see just going up across the top on the where the sand dunes were, the community were walking. And I went, oh, as soon as I saw it, I recognised what it was, it was a funeral. And I turned around and said, I'm sorry, we're going to have to put our gear down. We're not going to be able to shoot. There's a funeral on. And they sort of got a bit antsy going, well, we paid all this money. We've come here and said, well, hang on. We're on community. A little bit of respect here. Just wait here for a second. I'll go and have your yarn to this Mob and see what's going on and maybe we can maybe come back later. And I was walking down to where all the uncles were sitting under the big tree singing and I was having a look. And then one old fella, Hey, what are you doing here? I said, oh, come here, take some photos. Oh, we got the ceremony and we're about to do the smoking. How about once we finished, you can come back. And I said, oh, thank you. I appreciate this. But there's one thing you got to do. You got to photograph the ceremony.

And in the past that was taboo. You'd never do it. You were never allowed to do it. It was cameras down, equipment down. It could be for a week, could be two weeks, you weren't allowed to shoot. But because the trust and the respect that I'd built of knowing people for so long is that, and the change in particular remote culture, the remote communities, it was a bit of a, what's that? I can't even say it now, the word. So I went and photographed the smoking ceremony and then we shot for the rest of the day.

So it was the connection and the respect and working with community to get what we all wanted and what we all need. And those stories are not uncommon. And that's what I find now is that we are now more open to using technology, particular the visual imaging to share our stories. Whereas years ago, and you would've experienced a lot, like you said, a lot of mob didn't want photos. Whereas now just walk in a community. Hey, my photo, photo photo.

Ian RT Colless: But that speaks to where things are evolving, right? And again, yes, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures are the oldest living cultures in the world. I hear this time and time again. But why? Why are they the oldest living cultures in the world? It's their ability to be strategically agile. It's their ability to be creative, adaptive and responsive, and at times divergent to make sure that we have a living and fruitful culture. 

And I call it, I think I've talked to a couple of people about this before, a Rubik's cube, a fine tuning. What's so unique about social governance structures between what I term multicultural and multi-generational experiences, which is happening here, is that someone will go, oh, I see it like this pattern. And they'll hand it and they'll go, oh, yep, that pattern's good. We can see it like this. By the time the Rubik's cube has got to the end, you've got six different perspectives on the one thing. And that diversity of that understanding of that one thing creates viability, it creates strategic agility. And that strategic agility is fundamental for the continued forward focusing aspects of our cultural expressions and is indeed part of the oldest living cultures. That it's lived. It's changed.

You don't live in a house and not changed a painting here or there or do a bit of changing rooms every now and then. You've got to change up your room and you've got to evolve. You've got to change your living spaces. And as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, our ability to adapt, to look at digital literacy skills, to consider how we're going to be positioning, what is our digital sovereigntry, what is our artistic sovereign tree? All of those sort of things are evolving and growing and that is just a minefield of things.

But I'm really encouraged, and I'm sure you are, with our ability to do that Rubik's Cube to hand things around and to get that fine tuning that is so critical to the maintenance of the oldest living cultural expressions.

Michael, I'm blown away by you. And I told you this morning, I haven't met Michael before, and I looked at his shoes and I said, Hey, you've been to Broome. Because I can never ever forget that country. The colour of that country is really quite something. With the question that I was wondering if you could explore is what advice would you give collection agencies about growing their range of First Nations photography?

Michael Jalaru Torres: I guess to answer that, we have to go back a few decades. Well, in my time, 20 years at least, where mainstream media and technology has changed so much, where. Back when I was younger, indigenous people in this country had no platform to talk, share their knowledge, their culture. With technology it's changed so much in the last two decades that we do have a platform now. And I guess that's kind of changed a lot of institutions to how they deal with First Nations people. Where a lot of the institutions back then their doors would be shut in a way because it was very white dominated cultural scene. And lately it's all shifting now where you do have First Nations staff and all this stuff, committee members, directors. Where the institutions are willing now to get that content. But getting that content is always an issue because you can't just go get a photographer, we want this content, done, here's 50 bucks. That might've worked in the past, but now with a lot of people with protocols now, knowledge of protocols and issues of people from urban areas going to remote areas trying to get these images, it's quite difficult. Or even to the point where getting all the information for those institutions is quite hard. So it's a minefield. And it's slowly sorting itself out.
But in a way, I'll definitely give examples to Tamati here because he's one of his emerging photographers who a lot of the institutions see him, oh, we will get this BLO to get this content. And he's got to go through that minefield of how do I deal with this stuff going to these communities, let alone his own community to get this information and and then getting payment. And then you've got stuff like Uncle here where he's got a vast collection of information or photos, but now who are these people? Where's the captions? Where's the dates?

So it's all shifted so much that in a way we're behind the eight ball in a way, black photographers, because we have to really the door's open, but a lot of us aren't ready for it. So institutions have to be a bit more, have that discussion, find out the best way that we can do it, work together. Because in the end, it's the institutions who, I guess in a way. The black photographers have the control, they have the power because we have the content, we have the means to get their content. So these institutions really have to work with the black photographers to find out the best way to do it.
Because I mean, I'll talk about Black Lens later, but that's one of the reasons why I help create Black Lens is to give us photographers a better understanding, who are emerging and who are established to deal with these institutions and stuff. Because we get these questions all the time. Certain library wants my images, what do I do? How much do I charge? What's my rights, copyright? And my view with copyright with that is it's got to be a shared copyright. It has to be on the photographers, they've got to have the copyright. The institutions can have a shared copyright, but also now with native title, with all these pbcs popping up everywhere, I think there should be a way that the PBCs can have copyright as well.

For when the photographer do pass on. How does the community have the access to these images as well? PBCs weren't a couple of years ago, they weren't around, but now they are. Is that a way to protect these images so that community can have access to these images for their own use? Because I know with institutions, if the photographer passes on, who has a copyright of these images? How do community get access to these images and works? So there's still a lot of discussion around that stuff. One way can't work all, what's the word? You can't use one brush for everyone. Everyone's different, different levels, each community's different. They've got different protocols. And I think especially places like Canberra with a lot of the national stuff, they do really need to go back out to these communities, these regions, to find out how they want their images to be archived and accessed.

Ian RT Colless: And I guess that engagement with those, I always say just as country's unique, so too is the individual, right? And the protocol and all of those sort of things is that with those engagements, with the diversity of communities or individuals within that said community, again, that Rubik's cube, there's going to be a whole spectrum of solutions that will occur because of the individuality of that spirit of reciprocity that's occurring between you, the organisation and the creator and their relationship as you've noted with that community and all of that. And as a result, each one of those is going to have a unique fingerprint. And that in itself creates new possibility.

Michael Jalaru Torres: And I guess it leads towards sovereign data. How do we take our culture's information and have it our own? Because take it away from these institutions because we are handing over our knowledge and it is part of our sovereignty as well. And what does the future look like? Do we have our own data that we can store all our knowledge in and then our data goes outwards to these institutions?

Ian RT Colless: Absolutely. I find all of that fascinating. What is it in regards to, and yes, in regards to what is it about the digital sovereignty of that information within the ether? Is it hubbed in that country? Is it hubbed in a specific area? Is it hubbed in a ceremonial area where that data, yes, just as country is unique to its own environment. [unclear]. Welcome to an Aboriginal event.

Just as country is unique to its own environment so too is the pulse of that country. No, get your pens out. Just as country is unique to its own environment so too is the totemic events that made and continue to make country. It's pulse, it's rhythm, it's sounds, it's language, it's story, it's dance. When we are within these places as cultural practitioners and arts workers, we are making the dreaming mobile. And it is our cultural right and responsibility as indigenous peoples to do that. And as a result, because it's come from that unique place, it has a place which you are talking about, Michael, it too has a place here. So going to the authentic source can create a whole new way of understanding things that could just open things up because of the diversity of that exchange and that reciprocity.

Aunty Barbara, can you hear me now? Aunty Barbara? Oh shit. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. Okay. Oh, I've got this one. Okay. Oh, it's mine. Yeah. Can you hear me Aunt? Yeah, can you hear Aunt?

Barbara McGrady: I can, but I've been told to turn the mic down.

Ian RT Colless: You're perfect.

Barbara McGrady: So I'm talking to you on the phone. Alright.

Ian RT Colless: Yep.

Barbara McGrady: And you can hear me

Ian RT Colless: Absolutely perfectly.

Barbara McGrady: Alright, good.

Ian RT Colless: Thank you for joining us tonight, Aunty. Pardon?

Barbara McGrady: This is a bit of an ordeal. What's happening?

Ian RT Colless: You're right, Aunt, don't worry about it. Can you hear? We're all good now.

Barbara McGrady: Okay, no worries.

Ian RT Colless: Now can I ask the question?

Barbara McGrady: Yeah.

Ian RT Colless: Hey, look out. Thank you for those beautiful images you did [unclear] the other day. They were deadly. The question is, considering the depth and diversity of your career, Aunty, Barbara, what opportunities do you think that you've missed out on so far?

Barbara McGrady: That's a funny question because I don't think I've missed out on too much. Look, I've documented, photographed a lot of the big important events and histories that our mob has been involved in, so I don't really think I've missed out on too much. Except lately with my health problems, I've got a chronic illness, so I haven't been able to travel and haven't been able to get to different events in other places that I'd love to go to and document. But it is what it is. So that's the way it goes. But honestly, I don't feel like I've missed out on too much.

Ian RT Colless: And Aunty, I mean, growing up in the Blue Mountains, I was always dragged down to Redfern. You are at everything, you're at Nasda, you're at Mardi Gras.

Barbara McGrady: Not so much now because of my health problems, but yeah.

Ian RT Colless: Looking back on that Aunty, what's a highlight of your career that you wish to share with us?

Barbara McGrady: Look, there's been so many. My focus is big time sport. I've photographed sport for a long time. I honed my skills in the early days, photographing footy all over the place, park footy, footy in the country. So yeah, the highlights have been, I suppose, working with the NRL, the AFL and title fight boxing. So that's what I really love doing. Yeah, it's been a big part of my photography.

Ian RT Colless: And it's certainly an important part of your work is your diversity.

Barbara McGrady: I like to photograph our deadly sports heroes, men and women. And I've got 15 one metre images on a big wall at an auditorium in Glebe. It's been up for about a year and that's still going. So yeah.

Ian RT Colless: That's extraordinary Aunty.

Barbara McGrady: Yeah, you were asking me about highlights, I suppose having a retrospective in 2017 being a part of the Sydney Biannale in 2020 I think it was, and then it was put off because of COVID and it went on later. And I don't get to photograph much NRL anymore. I do a few press conferences, but I try to get to a few Swans games at the SCG because it's just easy to get around and I get a lot of help there because everyone knows me and all that. So that's mainly what I do and I do a bit of the boxing, so yeah.

Ian RT Colless: Thank you, Aunty. That leads me into the next question for we have up next, the wonderful Tamati. Tamati looking back at your career so far, what is something that stood out for you? We're going to reflect on that now. What is something that stood out for you? It's something that you've reflect on with great pride and admiration.

Tamati Smith: Great pride and admiration. Reflect something. That's a really difficult thing at the moment for me to answer. I've had a pretty short career. Can you please ask that question again?

Ian RT Colless: Looking back on your career so far, is there something that you look back at that you want to share with us that has given you pride.

Tamati Smith: Well, there is something, but it's something that I've just done very recently at the moment, which I'm not allowed to talk about until the story's published.

Ian RT Colless: It's a pretty big deal. It's very exciting.

Tamati Smith: And being able to be asked to in such short notice to work for this organisation being the largest news organisation in the world there to cover a story. I think that's something I would love to talk about, but it can't just yet,

Ian RT Colless: Not just yet. Watch this space, watch this space.

Tamati Smith: But it's also interesting because this is the way that this community is going to be viewed through these images. For me, words don't ever really do enough to a story. I want to be able to see that story as well, to be able to imagine it. It's difficult because your imagination just might go to all sorts of different things and everything like that, but you never quite understand it until you see photos of it. Which is one of the reasons why I really love photos as well. But yeah, does that answer the question?

Ian RT Colless: It does. I just wish we could tell people what it is. I [unclear] the Doris Day on that. [unclear] No, I don't think we can. 

Tamati Smith: I can actually, yeah.

Ian RT Colless: Drum roll.

Tamati Smith: It's the New York Times.

Wayne Quilliam: They let him bait your brother.

Tamati Smith: That's it.

Ian RT Colless: It's just the New York Times.

Tamati Smith: Well, on the books. Well, I'm on the books now, so that's the thing right there. That means future work and another client, another international client. I can add to my belt.

Ian RT Colless: Absolutely.

Tamati Smith: But I can work for as well. But it also with these, I think, Michael, you were touching on it earlier about this minefield of conversations that I'm having to have in this industry. I'm trying to navigate this area that I'm not so familiar with because I've never been a photographer for very long. My career was in the Navy as a communication sailor. I worked with flashing lights and doing radio signals between ships and visional signalling with flags. And then now I'm here having to have discussions around Aboriginal people, how we want to be portrayed, how we want our story to be told. And how I am now showing that story as well. It's really different to me, but I'm very fortunate to have my mother who's recently just got a doctorate and out there as well and is very familiar with a lot of these conversations to lean on and answer questions when I become confused as well. But yeah,

Ian RT Colless: And how lucky we are to have you and your mother and your contributions to our people. It's so important. So thank you Mr New York Times.

Tamati Smith: I'm actually more lucky to be around these people right now.

Ian RT Colless: Absolutely.

Tamati Smith: In the short period of time that I've been a photographer, I've had to find people to look up to and Wayne here now, when I first bought a camera, I realised I needed to find a picture book to look at. I needed to see how people were photographing the world and our culture as well and everything like that. And your book is one of the first books I bought to look at and go through these images, everything like that.

And then as I moved into press photography more and everything like that, I wanted to understand more about photojournalism in Australia and who our indigenous photojournalist, the ones that are telling our story to the media. And that's when I fell onto Mervyn Bishop and wanted to learn more about his journey and everything like that.

Then Michael comes along and he's the one that's been pushing me now for the last two years as well. Then Tiffany, like you have supported me while I've been living in Melbourne. It's a very recent thing for me to move from Melbourne, from Western Australia and without Tiffany there as well. It would be a hard struggle for me. In an area that I'm not very familiar with. I appreciative of that as well. I'm just going around just saying thanks to everyone.

Wayne Quilliam: Thanks [unclear] special brother.

Ian RT Colless: Yeah nice. What's really interesting is what's the lens and what's that saying? They say, who holds the pen? What is it? Who holds the pen writes the book, right? Whoever the author, what is it? Whoever holds the pen. The thing is the lenses that a large amount of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have been understood with are non-indigenous lenses. And having lenses that are indigenous focused by indigenous people is really quite important and really significant because we're able to understand something differently. Uncle, looking back at your career so far, would you like to share a highlight?

Mervyn Bishop: When I was at 'The Sydney Morning Herald', I'd taken a picture of a nun with a sick child outside St. Margaret's hospital in Darlinghurst. And anyway, I won Australian News Photographer of the Year for that image. I got paid 200 bucks, a lot of money, but the mother of the child kept, kept an eye on me from other years of my bylines and my images in the papers. I went to an exhibition one time in Sydney and along comes, near St. Vincent's Hospital, and some of the doctors came down and including one of those doctors was this chap who'd grown up to be an ear, nose and throat specialist, and he bought his sister and other doctors and he said, my mum keeps an eye on you. He said, she's still got that dressing gown hanging up in the wardrobe. And I said, what? I said, oh yeah. He said, no. He said, it was fantastic that you did it and it, in those days you did things automatically. Your focus, your aperture, your speed and flash. You didn't get another chance, not like say digital cameras down, you just put the finger on and pick them. But those days you had to be kind of a sniper, really. You'd pick your shot.

And the other sort of, I was working in Aboriginal affairs and in Brisbane and we got a call, oh you guys, me and film cameraman Terry Horn said, we want you to go up the territory. The Prime Minister's going up there for something. Oh yeah, okay. So we flew from Brisbane to Mount Isa, then on to Darwin, and the next day we had to fly down to [unclear] Creek there that might see that image of mine of Gough then Prime Minister pouring soil back into the hand of Uncle Vincent Lingiari and beautiful. I thinking, oh, this is good. I shot on a hassle, blood bang, bang, bang. But we'd taken some pictures under a bow shed earlier and they weren't as good. The light wasn't so good, and guy from the 'Woman's Weekly', Keith Barlow, he said, Bishop, it's a bit dull in here, isn't it? I went bright sun. I said, do you reckon we could get the old fellow outside? So I went up to Mr Whitlam and I said, Mr Whitlam, would you mind, can we do this picture again outside in the bright sunlight? He said, very well.

So trotted him out, trotted him out, and someone grabbed Uncle, Uncle Vincent. I said, come along Uncle, you're coming to, and so set him up with the deeds in one hand and his hand out like that, and Gough sort of bent down and scooped up some dirt. Alright, yep, click, click, click. I shot a few images on the bladder, that's not a real fast camera. And then Keith Barlow shot his pictures and we held back other people were trying to get in under our guard, said, get back, get back, get back. Said, right, we've got our pictures, you guys go for it and then Gough sort of walked away. So now that's become quite an important image of reconciliation, I guess, in Australia. And everyone wants one. Put your hand up if you've got a lot of money. Oh my word. How did you get by that? How much did you pay. For people Zooming in we've got an image sitting here in the audience and a fan. A fan.

I mean, you think about it and right now, and I see on the TV that at that area has been flooded, Gurindji. I dunno how close it is to Wattle Creek, but I dunno how close it is to the little village or where they lived. They might not live in the village. They might live out that a few miles out of town. I got no idea. So it'd be interesting to follow up and go back. I believe that they've built a little museum there talking about those days of negotiations.

Ian RT Colless: And they're such important negotiations. Definitely. You should definitely go back to that negotiations. Tiffany.

Tiffany Garvie: Yes.

Ian RT Colless: Looking back at your work and your contributions so far, what's the standout for you?

Tiffany Garvie: I think it's just something I did recently in the last couple of years, which actually kicked off in COVID and it was documenting the impact of the bushfires and COVID on regional Victoria. And this project was for the State Library of Victoria and it was adding images to their collections, so storytelling through images and adding those images to document how the bushfires impacted regional Victoria. But also how COVID was impacting regional Victoria and I say was impacting at that time because I did the initial part of this shoot through lockdown in Melbourne and that was a really special project. One was actually building those connections with the regional communities in Victoria. Two was being brought in as a photographer and then realising I had editorial control over the stories that I was going to be documenting. That gave me an opportunity to actually go out and seek who were the first nations voices in these areas as well, and actually contribute our own voices to these archives and these collections as opposed to being an anthropological study of our images being used in that manner.

So months of emails and phone calls before I actually left and I was given permission to leave Melbourne during lockdown. I don't know if anyone here really, if you were in Melbourne at that time, how you would really sort of understand what that meant to go, actually get out of town, actually get more than five kilometres from your own house at that time. And I was given permission to leave and go and do this documentary because it was time critical and going out and being with people in these incredibly devastated communities, having conversations with people with nothing, but they're still very incredibly happy to see you and feeling incredibly grateful to see you because you're making their voices count. You're giving them relevance and you're contributing their story to permanent archives and permanent history. And they actually have an opportunity to leave a legacy that they have control over because this is their story that they're telling it their way on all of these shoots.

My camera didn't even come out initially. It was walking around having a chat with people, being on country, walking over 10 acres of property or just walking through a tent and having conversations. And even connecting with places like Lake Tyres, going down and having a chat with Aunty Charmaine Sellings leading the Aboriginal Fire Brigade down there. You look after that whole region and talking about how they manage the bushfires and having these really beautiful positive stories come out of it as well. And going into as far as Mallacoota covering another half a dozen stories out that way through images.

And the beauty of that was I was given an opportunity to go and follow those stories up two years down the track. And I went back last year to follow up some of those stories and track it long-term to see how those people are fairing. Where they're at, not just physically in the space that they live. It's not often, it's not just about rebuilding the house that they lived in. There's a whole raft of complex emotions that go along with it.

And sadly, one of the people had passed away, very critical, a key person within their community. And I actually didn't know that until I arrived and that really hit me hard. But the family said to me, no, please don't be upset. Those photos you took of us, we brought our whole family on that day you took those photos and that's the only photo we've got of all our family together. You've done a beautiful thing for us. Please don't be sad because you've made us very happy. And just getting emotional about it. Just knowing that I was able to document that for them and they're still very happy to have that image in the permanent collections because it's their matriarch and their matriarch is now part of history. And had I not gone out there and done that, they wouldn't have had that opportunity. So I'm very proud of those stories I did and I'm very proud of having that opportunity to create a permanent memory for that family.

Ian RT Colless: Wow, that's beautiful. What's so interesting about a lot of the examples that have been shared with all of us today here in this space and online is that I call it don't pitch a tent without setting a campfire. Indigenous engagement is something that we must go back to. It is about what Uncle Merv and what all of these wonderful artists have been exploring about developing trust, taking time to develop trust. It's so important. If you're going to do indigenous engagement, the relationship and going back to that community and maintaining that relationship and growing that relationship can inform the process in such an extraordinary way. If you just arrive, pitch a tent, leave and never go back to that community, those impacts, the ripples aren't going to occur. What's so unique is that when you actually set a fire up and then you pitch the tent and then you leave the fire and you work with the community to take the wood and to put it back, it informs how you are in relationship with those people, that country. And as a result, its unique cultural expression.

And also another characteristic that I'm hearing quite a lot in these conversations is how indigenous people had no platform and how engaging and sharing culture now is shifting. And Michael, you touched on this particularly with your work with your website. Would you like to talk a little bit further about that?

Michael Jalaru Torres:Yeah, so to go back a little bit, so I was born and raised in Broome, so quite a remote area. And as  someone growing up there, you dream about, well, as a photographer you dream about shooting at these events. You see these events on TV or you see it on websites and stuff and it's always unattainable in your mind. Think, how the hell am I going to do that? And at one point it was always in your head.And then I was fortunate to live in Melbourne for a few 

years pre-pandemic. And part of that was I am going to shoot the AFL game for the grand final one day. And that was just in my head. My wife thought I was crazy because I had no connections to try and get in. Just emailed, called people, had a lot of coffees and had this plan to try and create a pathway within the AFL just because AFL footy around Australia, especially with the kids, they love it and it's just another tool for them to be part of footy as a photographer or behind the scenes.

So it was always a dream of mine just to do it. And I'd drag a few of the crew with me as well. Part of that journey. My first official game to shoot was the AFL Grand Final in Perth, which was pretty crazy and didn't sleep the night before, didn't sleep that night as well. So going on fumes, but. That was just crazy in my head because there's always been indigenous photographers who shot footy years before me, but this was just more of a personal goal for mine to be able to do it from a remote region to go to the big city, find a way to get there and do it.

And it really stuck into me when I did one of the Dreamtime at the G Games. And actually the AFL did a little video on me and doing the whole story and shooting the sidelines. And at that point it was just, oh, it's just a little video, it's fine. But it wasn't until a year later when my eldest son was at school and they were doing what your parents do type of project. And so I sent him the link to that and my son watched it in front of his friends. He's never known about it or seen it, so it was a full-on surprise. And that night he goes to my wife, says his dad a little bit famous and this stuck in my head. I said, I guess so.

But that was just on a personal level where it kind of validated my drive for change and finding a way which then helped really push my drive for Black Lens because in my mind, if I could do it coming from remote area, mature age, young family, anyone can do it.

Ian RT Colless: That contingency is so important.

Michael Jalaru Torres: And it really link back to another personal goal of mine was, growing up in Perth, I mean studying in Perth, walking by the art gallery every day catching the train and you see the window there of the art gallery and you go, oh, one day I want to be there with my art. At that point I thought I was going to be a painter, which didn't go that way. But then, yeah, last year I was the first indigenous solo photographic exhibition.

And seeing your name in that space, another validation for myself, but it does show if I can do it, I want to help other people get to that space. So working with a lot of emerging photographers as well as established photographers because sometimes established photographers, forget how hard it is when you're emerging, you forget how hard it is the industry can be, how ruthless the space can be,

But then also how much it's changed and how much easier it is. But you still have those wolves out there you've got to be wary of and you've got to lift your fellow member up as well, really support those who I guess in mainstream don't feel like they've got the support and platform. So our merging and establish black female photographers, getting them into that space. Absolutely. Sometimes it is hard because I'm with the Black Lens, my priority is you just got to be black and you got to be a photographer or drone operator. All the other politics I want to leave out, there's enough of that in a world where I really want to support us on those two things. Being authentic.

Ian RT Colless: Again, that strength-based approach

Michael Jalaru Torres: And doing your craft.

Ian RT Colless: Being authentic and doing your craft.

Michael Jalaru Torres: Everyone else can deal with the other stuff. And for me, doing Black Lens, it's amazing seeing the group chang,e have their own success. A lot of them are quite in the hobby stage where they want to start slowly getting that confidence up, seeing others in a group get their own success and then they see, oh, I can do that as well. So everyone's the rising tide lifts all boats type mentality.

And a lot of them do see the photographers before us like Wayne and Barbara and Mervyn and Ricky Maynard, all these mob who've done such amazing work in a hard time as well. Because you didn't have social media back then, so you didn't have the social media pushing these institutions and media organisations for change, so would've been quite hard back then. And so a lot of young people have to respect that in a way. And the way the modern world works now, it is such a privilege to be able to get into these spaces.

Ian RT Colless: Absolutely.

Michael Jalaru Torres: And seeing mainstream media and everyone else want that authentic First Nations content and also the content creator. So it's a twofold, I guess, weapon that we have and that we need to use that weapon wisely and encourage everyone. Because I know a lot of mature aged people who would be great at photography. Photography is such a great tool, not as just as a craft, but also as a business in their own communities. Because there's a lot of communities and towns remotely and regionally that still don't use First Nation photographers for their content and that has to change. And encouraging mob in those regions to take up a camera and to photograph the events, family portraits, all those things as a local business just helps more. Creates more content for these institutions to get content and instead of relying on a few, you needed support everyone in those regions.

Ian RT Colless: Absolutely.

Michael Jalaru Torres: And that's where we're using the power of social media with Instagram and the website, especially with Black Lens. Yeah, it's been a crazy journey. It's only been going what, 2 going to 3 years now, 40 plus members and yeah. Crazy stories like Luther, one of our photographers who still sees his work as in a hobby stage is once fun. He got the, what is it, the public's, People's Choice, And Wayne got the Portrait of the Year. So for him I think that really clicked in his head to do it, to win a major prize with one of his peers, but also someone he looks up to with Wayne.
So these little things that are happening around, it's just shifting everything and allowing everyone, not only our First Nations photographers, but also non-indigenous photographers because a lot of them have been quite supportive as well because they want change as well because they know they are in those spaces and majority of them want to step back, but they don't know who to step back for. So there's that education as well. And so I think we're on the right track. It just takes a little bit of time and a bit more encouragement for our emerging photographers that there is a space for them in not only black space but in mainstream.

Ian RT Colless: And if we can't see ourselves in those spaces, how will we ever be in those spaces? I always go back to that. How do you embrace something that doesn't embrace you?

Michael Jalaru Torres: Well, I mean look at this, you've got a crowd of people listening to us. 30 years ago you probably wouldn't happen.

Ian RT Colless: Absolutely.

Michael Jalaru Torres: There's change.

Ian RT Colless: There's change and it's exciting and we're all part of that change. And we have to do that together.
My last question before I open up to Q&A, I wouldn't dare go back on Zoom land because I think that that's going to be a little bit challenging and I pay my deep respects to Aunty Barb, I just, I'm conscious of the time.

So I guess my last question is for Wayne, looking back again, you were talking about trust, right? When you were going up, what find so interesting is that how you guys all, photographers are really cheeky, they dip their toe. I mean I might be wrong, I'm a choreographer, but they dip their to, I know Joe Dreesen and she does that, she dips her toe and she'd just be like, boom photo, how'd you do that? And there's this wonderful image. But you don't just dive into the water. Some people do do the bomb or the dog, but I mean I like to stick my toe in and to the water more glamorously and you can climatize yourself to that and being in country and being in these circumstances, I've heard in all of your conversations so far the ability to be informed by that climate and be responsive to that climate. It's really quite extraordinary.
Looking back at your career and your life so far, what's something that you were talking about that time where you were going up and now doing that, sorry business that's just gorgeous and so well illustrated. Is there a story that you look back with excitement and makes you feel you, now?

Wayne Quilliam: Yeah, rather it's, I'm eternally grateful to be given the opportunity to be allowed into community. Whether it's, you're talking about Lake Tyres in Victoria, you're talking about the remote communities, the rural communities, any community that allows you in there with a camera to be absorbed into their life.

The respect that I offer to them and they offer back to me is something special that I cherish because I see it as an extended family. And so before I get a little bit more into what you were talking about is that I want to pay respect to my wife, to my kids because what they've had to put up with for so long of being on the road for 10 months of the year, sometimes literally I come home drop, hello, wet weather gear, cold weather gear, where are you going? My wife sometimes rings me, where are you? I go, I told you I'm in Alice. She said, no, you were in Broome yesterday. And it's that constant they've had to put up with that.

And since COVID and God, I love COVID. I know that's really weird to say, but it forced me to stop. Literally it forced me to, I forgot that I was in this beautiful cycle of being travelling all the time, whether it's here in Australia or whether it was overseas. It was continually, and I was talking Tiffany about before it's the visibility is that, and Michael was touching on it, is that when I started, without the use of social media, you needed to be visible. You needed to continually do the jobs, do the jobs to be in front of people to go, ah him, we've got to use him because of his expertise. His knowledge, his influence in the communities to be able to get what we need and done properly.

So yeah, it's the family thing that really stands out for me. But some of the most poignant moments of the career and you were talking about it was, so I think it was the first time last year that an aboriginal photographer won National Portrait Gallery photo and the portrait, the People's Choice Award in the same year. And funnily enough, I was judging the Australian Geographic Awards in, where I was at, Adelaide last week and the exhibitions now since gone from the poetry gallery to gallery in Adelaide. So I said to the judges, come on you mob, we're going to go down and have a look at it. We walked in and I said to 'em, I said, look at where we've come from. Where in the old days a lot of non-indigenous photographers were going in photographing our people and there was no reciprocity into it. Whereas now we are doing it ourselves, all of us on different levels.

But the moment I think that really stands out to me that there's so many, there's a million, a million stories and we could be here for years talking about it, is when Mervyn and I both was the photographers on the apology, what was it, 15 years ago? And yeah, we were just talking, that's how long it was 14 years ago since we've seen each other, it's been too long. And the moment that got to me and I realised the importance of storytelling of connection was the PM and everyone was up on the stage after they come out and the official apology was made. And all the photographers and were all along and we were looking up and the PM was there. And then that to be said, they all walked off the side of stage with Aunty Matilda house and everybody, Dr Marika was standing there, [unclear] woman and Marley Hosh, which is Tanya Hosh is a very prominent aboriginal woman, a little baby, I dunno. It was this tiny little baby was in her arms and she was crying and Dr Marika just turned around and she sat where the PM was and she sat there and she said to Tanya said, come across. I look after her. She put her in her arms and I was watching the pack move that way. And I turned around and looked at her and she looked at me, give me the cheeky smile and just quick shot. Never thought much about it. It was a year later that we were putting an exhibition up at Parliament House in Canberra and we had to do these beautiful posters to represent what the Apology was about. And we didn't realise that was the photo. We decided that was the photo that was going to be on the poster.

We flew to Darwin to meet Dr Marika to sure that it was all approved, everything was right, her looked right, the wording was right. She was fastidious on her time, she always was there. And we got up to Darwin and she's nowhere to be seen. We, oh, this is really, really strange. And we called around and we couldn't find her. And someone said, oh no, she's actually gone back home. She's just gone back to [unclear] went, oh, and we were calling [unclear]. And she says, oh, she's actually just passed away. She knew that she was dying. She jumped on the plane and went back to [unclear] and passed away.

So all these beautiful things were printed ready to go to. I think it was a quarter of a million went out. And it was heartbreaking because the initial thought was back then that we would've had to destroy them all. But we negotiated with the community. We went to them and said, in a respectful time, we went back to community with these and they turned around and they put it to all the clan groups that was going to be something, a remembrance of her.

And we ended up putting it out there. And the beautiful thing is I took that exhibition up to [unclear] Festival a year later and the story behind that was we had the big beautiful photos on Perspex and they were hanging out in the bush and we had these people, the whole show was there and tradition up there is to, in remembrance of people you touch under your arms or the sweat off your brow and you touch a, at this stage it was the photo. And for those who dunno where [unclear] is, it's all [unclear], which is red dust. Well, as you know, it's red dust, it's home. So the sweat with the red dust, by the time everyone was touching it, you couldn't see the photo anymore and they wanted to clean it. I said, no. He said, you have to leave it. That's a remark of respect.

So that's one of many, many stories that still resonates of the power of what we do, the importance of what we all do on different levels and how in the future, those are the stories that we continue to tell. And brother, listen to you about the first book. Hey, I mean that's really, so I've got a shameless publicity. That first one we did that beautiful little book that you saw and I went to the publishers and I said, oh, I said, we should do another one. They going, oh yeah, it went okay, we sold it out. As soon as I won that portrait award last year, two days later I got the call. They said, well you mind. They said, oh, you know that book. We were sort of talking about it.

Ian RT Colless: About publishing?

Wayne Quilliam: Yeah, about publishing again. I said, okay, this time proper big book, proper coffee table book. And they said the only caveat was that that photo had to be on the cover. So I should have brought this thing. I brought it with me. I'm bloody left it there.

Ian RT Colless: But he may look out, you've got to be telling them that Uncle Merv bishop looking publisher there set him up. I'm conscious of the time, I know we're a little bit over time, but I always say you can't fit over 60,000 years to a very small time. But I do think that we could ask one or two questions, Brother. Jeremy, do you think it's appropriate? Yeah, I work in the institution. I know that security. Yeah, it's all good.

Jeremy Ambrum: Yeah, we might just take questions in the room. Is there anyone?

Ian RT Colless: Any questions in the room? Now is your opportunity. Down here?

Jeremy Ambrum: We just have to wait for a mic so that people online can hear as well.

Ian RT Colless: I've got a spare one too if required. You right, Brad.

Audience member 1: My name's Hillary Ward off. I'm a photographer here in Queanbeyan. And I just want to congratulate you, Michael, on Black Lens. I saw it launch on Instagram a couple of years ago and I think it's the most wonderful thing that you've done. I wanted to know why it took so long, why it took so long to have a community of black people taking photographs of their own people.

Michael Jalaru Torres: To be honest, I think a lot of blackfellas are waiting for government to do stuff. And I think we have to reeducate ourselves that we don't need government to start initiatives like this. And it's just a matter of someone or a group of people taking the initiative and to start, that's simple as that really. We're not funded because another thing that's government funded or something, you always have strings attached where we want to have our own independence in that regard.

And it is a group led thing, like the name Black Lens was a group initiative. Everyone came out with the lens, the name of it. One of our photographers, Claudine Ford came up with a logo. You guys might know Bobby Luckier. She's looking after the socials. And I'm just the one championing it, I guess in a way and letting everyone else do their own thing. It's not like you have to do these things. It's like do your thing. Support each other, hand each other jobs. A lot of us are sharing jobs with each other and knowledge and all that stuff.

Ian RT Colless: And Michael, that's what blows me away about you. I was saying that to Jeremy. You have such an extraordinary ability to push others forward.

Michael Jalaru Torres: I mean, that's something I had to learn. For years I always had these ideas, why doesn't someone do this? Why isn't this happening? And you got to put money where your mouth is. And I put my hand up that one day. Didn't think it might happen, but it did. And here we are. Hopefully others can do it in other industries. I'm waiting for someone to do one in the arts or graphic design. Especially those industries which aren't supported by other peak bodies. There's a lot of that around

Ian RT Colless: And developing that agency, self-determination. And one last question because I'm conscious of people aren't streaming out of the theatre, so I think everyone's happy. So we've got a question up there. Thank you online for your patience. Okay, here we go.

Audience member 2: Thanks Jeremy. Thanks Ian for facilitating. Each and every one of our guests tonight has talked about the care and the time and the communication and the collaboration that goes into photography, photographing indigenous communities before you even take a photograph. How has this process, and if this process has influenced your visual style or the development of a personal visual style, how has it manifested?

Tiffany Garvie: I can answer. I guess an example of photographing community and what that might look like is if you put a non-indigenous and an indigenous photographer together photographing a protest event, you might think you're at the same event, so you're going to get the same images. It's not necessarily always the case. We have connections within that community. We understand the importance of two people who might be standing separately having a conversation and recognise who they are within that community, who they are within history, not just community, but within Australian history and photograph that moment as part of that event. So the stories that we would be photographing at those events quite often can be different. We'll come up with a different array of images, but I'll hand over, that's one aspect of it, but I'll hand over to some of the others for that as well.

Wayne Quilliam: Yeah, it's really a spiritual connection to both people and country. You understand when you go on country, that is not your country. But I was talking to a friend about mine this morning about sometimes we get a fill of our spirituality on different areas and it changes, it evolves. It's an evolutionary race that we are. We are not stagnant in what we do. So when you feel that you're on country and you understand where you are and you recognise where you are, then the imaging follows it. And I still believe that to today is that there's certain places that you're in at a certain place at a certain time and the image comes to you. Why it comes to you, I still have no knowledge of, but it's that beautiful moment. You just stand there and go. It's like the portrait prize is that that was not a setup shot. Everyone thought that was a portrait. I was standing on the side of [unclear] and I looked across at him and I went, I know you brother. I said, I recognise you from somewhere. He says, yeah, you photographed my great grandfather. I went, oh, [unclear] mob. He goes, yeah, he says, we know who you are. And I said, oh, can I just grab a quick shot? That's all it was. It was what we're talking about.

It's involved in, it's being in sync with who you are and where you are. And it's an incredible feeling. My daughter feels that now. I take her every holidays we go out somewhere and I take her now and she just makes me giggle because she has a totally different lens on her. And I'm living now my career again through a 14-year-old girl. And this is just awesome because she just does stuff. I go, I have to look at the camera and go, who shot that? Was that her or me? Oh, good shot. That's mine. Don't tell her you're not watching. Are you sweetie? Go to bed. Over to you brother.

Tamati Smith: A question about personal style. How does going into these communities influenced that? In my photography. I haven't been a photographer long enough to understand what my style is or what I do, but one of the, that I do with my photos personally is I try to tell as much of the story of that area as possible. So I'll include things like the background, the subject and small things like where they sleep on, where they sleep or what they're eating out of also. So yeah, I have no idea what my style is yet. No idea. But I'm learning.

Michael Jalaru Torres: We all are. I guess I'll go the other way because coming from a remote region and actually shooting events in a urban setting is quite different because you are surrounded by a lot of Western people and everything. And sometimes for me, I'm not sure whose community who's not, who's actually a visitor themselves. So it's quite a strange concept to go into.

And for me, I just had to be as respectful as I can, do the job, as respectful as I can and not assert myself in that space. But also it's because you do have other indigenous photographers in those settings as well. And it's something that we're all learning because the days of maybe one black photographer in these events is now becoming multiple. And a funny story about that is up in Darwin, during the Darwin Arts Fair, we had, was it five of us?

Tamati Smith: Yeah.

Michael Jalaru Torres: Five of us shooting an event. And it was, it a moment. And at that point we all got a selfie on the catwalk.

Tamati Smith: Three of us.

Wayne Quilliam: Was that the [unclear] shot?

Michael Jalaru Torres: But then also we did the music awards. And I'll tell you, so we were there, three of us, and it was stinking hot. And then a television crew came in and said, we want this front cleared. One of us went and had a heated debate with the TV crew and then suddenly we were allowed back in. So it wasn't me, but you can imagine who it was.
So Tamati's style is like a bull in a China house, Chinashop. So I love because someone needs to be that, and that's him. He just goes there and he asks questions, well why? We need someone who always asks questions and he's that guy. And sometimes I go, well, I'm not sure we'll find out. And so he opened doors and avenues in his own way and a lot of us do it in our own way. And yeah, I'll speak from that's his style. It's worked for him.

Ian RT Colless: That calendar is available out the front. By the way, little centrefold calendar to take home of the boys at Darwin Aboriginal Arts Fair. I'm sure [unclear], the director of that, would be thrilled to have one herself. U
ncle, take us to, can you explore that last question before we close up this evening? Repeat it. The question, do you want to repeat it?

Audience member 2: How has engaging with indigenous cultures outside of your own influenced your visual identity?

Ian RT Colless: How has engaging with indigenous cultures outside of your own culture, is that correct? Influenced your visual identity? Is the question for our online people?

Mervyn Bishop: You mean other cultures, do you mean or Africans, Indians or I know. Well, they're trying to work you out. I know my son, he trained as a dancer with Nasda Aboriginal Dance Group and they were all different folks in the learning, he later became a dancer with [unclear]. And the dancers came from all different sort of backgrounds and well, he managed all that because you've still got to do your job, haven't you? And he did a few years and travelled around the world. I was so proud of him.

But I thought, well, that could apply to other folks about, not so much as just other races, but you go to some places where it's so different. When I first went up in the territory, I said, am I in the right country? I said, well, one chap, I spoke to him, I said, I've come from down south from Sydney and Canberra, what do you think of me? He said, oh, oh, you're the little red fella. Red? He said, well, you're not black, but he said, you're brown, but red is about as good as I could get for you. And I thought, oh, that's nice. And so I was speaking with him through to others to allowed me to take kind of photographs of then it was like, what was one of the groups, something of Federation of Aboriginal way back when Gough was in. That people are all around the country in each state and aboriginal people. Help me out. [unclear]. But after that, the. NAC. NACC. Things like that. And then something else, and then another group. So let's see what happens when you all vote Yes.

Ian RT Colless: We are going to try to end this evening to bring in Aunty Barb who has a question. Jeremy's asked me, do I just, hello? Can you hear me? Is it Hello? Hey, shut up. Yes.

Barbara McGrady: I want to ask Michael who the people were, who were the black photographers in the NRL and AFL. Because when I started doing this, it was the most hardest genre of photography I ever had to get into is sports media. And there was, I'm telling you now, there was no one there. So if they were there, I never saw them. So if you know of any, who were they Michael? Because I never saw any, there wasn't any.

Ian RT Colless: Michael.

Mervyn Bishop: Raj.

Michael Jalaru Torres: Well, in regards to sports photography, there's very limited Barbara obviously, but there were photographers who do shoot at the game for different reasons.

Barbara McGrady: I didn't see them in Melbourne and I didn't see them in Sydney with the NRL. The only other black photographer I ever saw was Peter Thompson, and he photographed RAB and community footballers like that in the South Sydney. So if they were there, I never saw them. There was no one there. 

So that's why, that's maybe one of the reasons why it was so hard for me to get in there because they don't let too many people in there, black or white. So what I had to do, they didn't see my vision. NRL media, especially the AFL was a little bit more visionary. But with the NRL I actually had to write an abridged essay of my sociology of sport, which I studied at university. So they didn't realise what I was trying to do. They didn't see a vision, the same one that I had. And then after that, I'd see people like now [unclear], Joseph Myers, who's a great black photographer, but he only done a few games here and there. And I didn't see anyone else in Melbourne when I photographed Dreamtime at the G. So if they were there, I didn't see them.

Ian RT Colless: Thank you Aunty.

Barbara McGrady: Yeah. That's why it was so hard.

Ian RT Colless: Yeah.

Barbara McGrady: Sports media is one of our hardest genres of photography to get into.

Ian RT Colless: All the team here are nodding.

Barbara McGrady: Okay.

Michael Jalaru Torres: I'll probably clarify that as well. With sports, it's with sports, with photography, you've got two levels. You've got the actual sports photographer who's shooting on field. That's what Barbara's getting at is there's no one really else out there other than Barbara and maybe a few others. There's definitely been a few who've shot on the event side. So that's off field, around the crowds and stuff. There's been a few people, I think Wayne's done a couple of Dreamtime, I think.

Wayne Quilliam: Yeah, brother. I did the 97 grand final, the Indigenous round I've done. I photographed, I was actually Richmond's Mighty come on mighty Tigers. I was their photographer for 15 years. I've shot all the initial NRL All Stars games. I shot sport for 20 years. So different. Not as a professional sports photographer. But yeah, the Dreamtimes always I've shot, I've probably shot a hundred over the years. I reckon So different sometimes. The thing is, in my opinion is the way that, in particular, the era that I come through, it was very individualistic there. There was no one to lean on in the field. There was literally no other photographers doing.

Ian RT Colless: Barbs agreeing. Yeah.

Wayne Quilliam: Yeah. Thanks that It's quite scary when you look back and so.

Ian RT Colless: Big Aunty, your whole story high.

Wayne Quilliam: Yeah. What's that?

Tamati Smith: Do you mind if I just add. This working right now? Yep.

Ian RT Colless: Is it working?

Tamati Smith: Yes. I just wanted to throw some praise towards Aunty Barbara because when I was in Sydney and the moments leaving the Navy, I had a conversation with her where she explained to me the importance of community of footy, especially to the community as well, which prompted me to go home and take photos of my local football team. One footy team that was usually ignored by local football photographers in that town as well. And a lot of these fellas in this team are all my family as well. So it's a really black fella team, this one as well. And I was finding out that they were using these photos for things like, what do you put them? Stubby holders? Yeah. So using photos for stubby holders or for birthdays or even their pregame hype up and stuff like that.

And then I was actually fortunate enough to shoot the final series for the AFL last year. And I was warned before going into this a FL area about how much of a boys club it can be. And to realise that you've existed in this industry for so long, especially as a black female photographer as well. It must've been really tough. Really, really tough. Because I went to the MCG, no one showed me anything where to go, where to get out into the field, what to do or anything like that. And when I did get out into the field, I was mostly ignored or just left to my own devices expecting to know what to do myself. And yeah, the words that you told me when I left Sydney that time about how important community photography footy is really stuck with me. And that's why I just jumped on it as soon as I went home. So Aunty Barb is I think a really strong person.

Ian RT Colless: Absolutely. And in closing, what I think is so unique, and I was echoing this with Jeremy and with Rebecca here at the National Library and the whole team, is that this panel is really extraordinary because at what it pulls together is a spectrum of career levels and cultural experiences with photography. And that in itself is very unique. On behalf of myself and I assume the National Library of Australia, we pay our deep respects to all of you and your contributions and your continued tenacity that's required in the continuation of our cultural expressions into the future. So I hope that you as indeed I am, are very proud and should be rightly proud of your work.

Thank you everyone for being here this evening and I hope that you all get home safely. And for those online thank you for joining us tonight for the first 2023 Deadly Dialogue. Thank you so much everyone. Yay. Jazz hands now And the Stubby coolers? The stubby coolers and the calendars you can purchase on your way out to the right. Thank you everyone.

Wayne Quilliam:
I want to see this calendar.