Daniel Gleeson:

Good evening everyone. And my name is Daniel Gleeson, the Director of Community Engagement here at the National Library. It's my pleasure to welcome you all here tonight, both here in the theatre and those joining us online. I'd like to begin by acknowledging the Ngunnawal and Ngambri people, the traditional custodians of the land on which we gather. And I acknowledge their ongoing connection to this land and I pay my respects to their elders past and present. And I extend that respect to all First Nations people here with us tonight.

I'm so pleased to introduce James Saunders, a Gunditjmara Wiradjuri and Wongaibon man from the Saunders and Parker family lines. James runs the Barragi Mawang digital marketing agency and he has over 12 years of experience working with First Nations communities around Australia. And he's also written an absolutely cracking book about his uncle, Reginald Saunders. Saunders was the first recognised indigenous officer in World War II, a position he was appointed to while serving against the Japanese in Papua New Guinea in 1944.

It's a fast paced and very exciting read. The story follows Reg and his brother Harry in World War II and then Reg as he returns to Australia, only to reenlist in 1950 with the 3rd Battalion three Royal Australian Regiment in the Korean War. I encourage you to get a copy of the book and read firsthand about the leadership role that Reg then played at the Battle of Kapyong facing an attacking force of 15,000 Chinese soldiers.

But this is also a book about Reg's contribution here in Canberra to public service as a Senior Liaison Officer for the Office of Aboriginal Affairs. And it is a story about family and two families in particular. And as a family affair, it is so wonderful that James will be joined in conversation tonight with his sister, Melina Saunders and Uncle Reginald's second daughter, Auntie Glenda Humes. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming James, Melina and Auntie Glenda to the stage.

Melina Saunders:

Thanks so much. Hold on, am I on? Good evening everyone. And it's really nice to see some familiar faces out there. If I could just take a moment just to associate myself with your acknowledgement, Daniel, and just acknowledge the Ngunnawal people who are the traditional custodians of the region that we all have the privilege of living and working on. I would also like to extend that acknowledgement to all other family groups who have connections to this region.

And in particular, would like to extend that acknowledgement to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are here, including the two very important people who I share the stage with this evening. So look, as Daniel said, Melina Saunders is my name. So I have the very great privilege of introducing the two speakers here with us this evening, my brother James, who is the author of this book and Glenda, our cousin who is one of Uncle Reg's children and his second daughter as introduced by Daniel.

Just a brief introduction because this is absolutely not about me, but I have lived and worked on Ngunnawal Country for almost close to 30 years. I work within the public service and where my family live, we actually drive every morning from our home, for me to get to work. I actually cross Reg Saunders Way. And for those of you who know that, that's right near Russell, the office is up near Defence where the 'big eagle' is. And we often talk in the car and we reflect on Uncle Reg's legacy, that legacy that is a family legacy and a really, really important one for all of us.

In thinking about this evening and this important privilege that I do have, I do have some questions for both James and for Glenda that we will get to in a moment. But it would be very remiss of me not to say to the two of them, thank you so much for telling this very important story that is a story that is part of our collective history. That is such an important part of our family story.

And to bring this to life, I don't underestimate the opportunities and the challenges and the deep amount of research you have both had to do to do this. So thank you so much. So Glenda, look, we'll start with you. So readers of 'Fighting for Country' get to learn about your dad's remarkable service. But to you first and foremost, he was your dad. What was he like from your perspective growing up?

Glenda Humes:

So I was very fortunate to have two lived experiences with my father. One is for after the Korean War when my parents split up. So I had the experience before that and also as an adult living with him in Canberra from 87 until he passed away in 1990. So the first experiences that I had was one that I never heard my parents have one argument. They would always, and after Korea, there would have been some that I imagined, but I never heard any because they would go in behind closed doors. And when I needed to be punished about something, I never did anything wrong. I was always a perfect child. It was 'Glenda Saunders, put your face to the back fence.' And that was it. And because you can get up to a lot of mischief in the back fence when no one's looking at you.

So that was the type of household that I grew up with my dad. It was very quiet. Mum was a different story. She was a runner, so we'd run from her and she'd chase us. But again, we never got slapped around or anything like that. But growing up, spending time with him as an adult, I was a mother with three children. I got a job in Canberra, the old DAA, and I lived in Cabramatta in Sydney. So I would come here from Monday to Friday and go back to my home in Cabramatta on Friday night and come back Sunday because I had two children there. One was in Year 11 and the other one was in Year 12. So we decided that we would keep that house there until they both graduated high school and then my husband moved down. And so we started to live with my...

He moved in as well two years after that. So Dad was the type of man who was very, very gentlemanly. He was always the best dressed person there. He would open doors for you. He would pull chairs out for you to sit down. And during the time that him and I lived together, he would cook dinner and then leave it until I got home and then I would warm it up. The table would always be set and there was always a menu on the table of what we were to eat.

So yeah, we would come home and then we'd talk about amazing things about my life and his life. And yeah, it was really a wonderful experience to go spend time with him. And I remember saying to my husband once who was ex soldier as well, 'Does my father ever swear?' I mean, I heard him say the occasional 'bloody' and stuff like that. And Bill said, 'Like a trooper.' But he never did that in front of women, never. So even as an adult, and my sisters will tell you the same thing. And my other sister, Hilary, who was with the other family, she's the only member of that family now that's still alive. And she said the same thing about Dad. That was her experience as his child as well. So it was great. Real gentleman.

Melina Saunders:

Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And if I could just overshare for a little bit, James and I were smacked around as children so that must have been nice. James, a book like 'Fighting for Country' requires an immense amount of historical detail and sensitivity. How did you approach doing all of the research for the book?

James Saunders:

Great question. Thank you Melina. And thank you everyone for coming this evening. I really appreciate your presence here tonight. I was really lucky with this book, with the research that there was bodies of work that I could pull on and call on. And the Australian War Memorial is a resource that I have to really acknowledge and they were really generous and helped me along the way. And guided me a bit and were telling me, 'Read these letters from your uncle Harry.' And they have a lot of love and affection for Uncle Reg. So the War Memorial was really invaluable for this book. But there's also a book written in 1962 by Harry Gordon called 'The Embarrassing Australian', which I read in my early 20s in Sydney and then revisited for the purpose of this book. And it was a really great picture of Uncle Reg's military service and history and it's great detail because Harry Gordon was a war correspondent. He was a journalist.

But there were gaps and it was a book of its time and there were things that I felt were missing from that yarn. So I did rely on that, but I also was really lucky that I knew the CEO of the National Film and Sound Archive, Patrick McIntyre. And I reached out to him and said, 'Look, I'm doing this project. Do you think there's anything in your collection that's got anything with Uncle Reg?' And he said, 'I'm going to get you somebody that definitely is.' And through that, I was able to find interviews with Uncle Reg. He was on 'The Mike Walsh Show' back in the day with his son Christopher. And that was a really great opportunity for me to hear Uncle Reg's voice because I met him when I was a small child, but I didn't have a lot of memories of that.

And so to be able to sit there and hear him talk and see how he was. And get a sense for him really helped me with the research as well. And then the letters that both Uncle Reg and Uncle Harry wrote to Dorothy, Glenda's mom were just very personal and very beautiful. And they gave me a great sense for Uncle Harry as well. And then I also got to acknowledge Gunditj Mirring back home who do a lot of the land claim, later title work for the Gunditjmara Nation.

They had a really great lot of research done on our history and our culture. And so I could draw on that as well because I'd lived down there and I know that country well. But they had stuff that extended beyond colonisation and they talked about how he would live traditionally, which I bought in through the book as well. So I was really lucky. There's a lot to draw on for that, which really helped create this piece of work.

Melina Saunders:

Yeah. Great. Thank you. Now I apologise in advance, Glenda, because the next question I'm going to ask you is probably going to give away your vintage a little bit. So you grew up as a young Aboriginal girl in Melbourne in the 1950s with a father who was recognised as a war hero. What was that experience like for you and your family in that time?

Glenda Humes:

Well, sometimes it was very challenging as well because we had no money or anything like that and housing was really a problem. But it also, spending time with my father then gave me a sense of who I am today actually because he was a football league before he liked to play footy and he liked his golf and he loved cricket. They were probably his three most important things in sport that he really liked. And he would often go for a walk on a Saturday morning before the game and he'd often take me with him. And I can recall sitting on the bar table of the pub and people coming up to Dad saying hello and talking about stuff, mainly men of course. And I said to him, 'Dad, how do you know so many people?' And he said, 'It's because I'm black.' And I thought, 'That's pretty good.'

So people like you because you're black. Didn't talk about being a good footballer or anything like that. And so that gave me a sense straight away of who I was and the type of person that I became in the end of working in Aboriginal affairs and doing a whole lot of other stuff like that. But he always had the best sense of humour. And he just loved kids. And I remember all our grandchildren, now I'm dipping out of the 50s and into the more current time, but he'd be the grandfather that would pull the coin from behind his ear and make the bunny from his handkerchief. And that was the type of father he was for the three daughters that he had at that time. And he'd often talk about my older sister, Barbara, who would have been 80 on last Monday and how he caught her eating snails once.

And she had one in her mouth and one in her hand and he said he didn't know what to do about that. And so we all had a laugh about that and she's, oh, that's not me because she hated snails. But that was her when she was about three or two or something. And yeah, so he was a really attentive father and it was difficult for him in the 50s as well coming back from Korea. Things weren't easy for him and couldn't find a job.

Oh, he found one. It just wasn't right for him. I mean, when he marched out of Seymour as a commissioned officer, he was at the top 10 in his class. And so after Second World War and after Korea, he couldn't find a job that would suit him. He was a man that led men in war who had men depend on him, couldn't find a job that would suit him to do that. Except as a tram drive, a tram conductor or on the wharfs or working in foundries, all very lowly paid jobs.

And he was just going to start, had one family, he was just going to start another one. It was just very difficult for him in the 1950s. And it was difficult for us, so difficult that we had to move out of Melbourne because my mother was really sick and moved to Sydney around that time because she needed to be with her family. And she had really nobody in Melbourne at all. My grandmother was a stolen gen from Pine Creek had ended up in Adelaide. So my mother grew up with no cousins, uncles, aunties, just her brothers and sisters and her mother and father.

So we didn't have that extended family that other Murray or Curry families would have in Australia. So she had to move. And that's some of the current photo you see up is some of the conditions. My sister was bitten on the finger by a rat in that house. And luckily people came along and gave us a better accommodation and that's when Dad was overseas.

Melina Saunders:

Thank you. James, uncovering hidden histories often comes with roadblocks. What were some of your biggest challenges that you faced while researching and writing?

James Saunders:

Yeah, there was quite a few challenges through this process. It took me two and a half years to get to this point. And as a first time author, you don't really have a lot of preparation. There's no one that's kind of helping you get it done. You've got to really rely on yourself and the publisher. They're available, but not like the way you think. I was really lucky that I had Glenda and Hilary to work with for this, to call on and to talk with. And you can see now how amazing Glenda is as a speaker and the wealth of village she has and holds. That helped me overcome some of those, but it was also a very emotional process. Talking about Uncle Harry was really difficult. He passed away at such a young age and it made me think of other people who have gone to fight for Australia at such young ages and that didn't return home. And what that would have been like for families.

And I never got to meet my grandfather who's standing there. I never got to meet Uncle Harry, but I feel a real closeness to them and learning the story and reading the letters and learning more about them. And I though about other families who had experienced that as well within the wider Australian landscape and that was difficult. And when I spoke about the convincing ground and our Frontier Wars here in Australia, that was very difficult as well because I know those massacre sites.

Our father showed me those when I was a small boy and we got to see the lava flow and how we lived on the lava flow and how there's not many families there anymore because of what happened, because of colonisation. And that was a heavy chapter as well. That wasn't easy to write because I'm a very visual person. I was imagining everything that I was writing, I could see as I was writing it.

And so yeah, without the family and I think having such a wide network of family to call on and rely on, I'm one of those family members that knows everyone. I know all the cousins. And if there's a cousin that appears somewhere, I'm the first person to be like, 'I want to know who they are. Who are you? Where you live? What do you like?' So that really helped me. The family really did help me overcome some of that stuff.

Melina Saunders:

Yeah. Great. Thank you. Glenda, you had the opportunity to visit Crete and set up something in memory for the Battle of 42nd Street. Can you share what that experience was like for you emotionally, but also walking in those footsteps?

Glenda Humes:

Thank you. I got a phone call. I was running an Aboriginal medical service in Bunbury in WA, and I got a call from this journo who said, 'Oh look, I'm going to Crete. I've read a lot about your dad and I want to go to Crete and I'm going to have a look at the sites that he had been, the battle sites.' And I'd never been to a battle site before. I've been to Aboriginal battle sites, of course, but I'd never been to one where the Australian Army had fought.

So I said, 'Oh, I want to go.' And so I got in contact with my two sisters, Dorothy and Judith, who live in Toowoomba. I live in Toowoomba too now. And I said, 'I'm going to Crete. You want to come?' And they said, 'Yeah, let's go.' So it was a whole family thing. So I took three of my grandchildren and Dorothy took one of her grandsons and Judith took one of her grandsons.

And they both had husbands. I had the kids because at that stage, my husband was not able to travel. And so we got to Crete and we were taken to 42nd Street. And if you don't know about 42nd Street, it's an important battle that Australians fought and along with the New Zealanders. So please look it up because it was a defining battle on Crete. Crete was starting to evacuate because they were being overrun by the Germans.

So the Australians were resting on 42nd Street along with the 28th Māori Battalion, and the Germans started to come in in great numbers. And so what did the Māoris do? They did a haka. Now, in 1943, who would've seen a haka? Not many Australians, certainly no Germans. So it would've been a very fearful thing. And so the Australians started yelling and screaming and though they'd joined the party as well.

And there was a bayonet fight as well that the Germans took to, I think, to the crimes committee saying they should never have done that. But over 200 Germans were killed that day. And there were a number of Australians killed, but not as many as the Germans, only a very few actually. But that also meant that they had to start evacuating the island. And so they did that. And by the time Dad got to the other side of the white mountains, all the boats had gone.

And so 2/7th had a choice, either surrender or you go on the run. So Dad went in on the run and stayed at a village called Lebene, whereas the rest of the battalion surrendered. They spent the rest of the war in the German prison of war camp in Germany. And so that changed Dad's life because by the Cretans looking after him, it meant that he could go to New Guinea when he returned to Australia and get nominated to be an officer in the Australian Army.

But while we were there, we visited the battle side of 42nd Street and my brother-in-law found a casing, a bullet casing. And the Cretans are really quite famous for shooting guns all the time anyway. So someone said, 'Oh, it's unlikely to be anything but a Cretan shell.' But I took it back to the Australian War Memorial and I asked them to have a look at it. And they said it would've been fired on the 27th of May when the Battle of 42nd Street took place, and it would've been fired by an Australian or a New Zealand with an infilled rifle.

And so we thought, 'This is so amazing.' We'd gone into that battle site. It felt silent the minute we entered it. We knew that they knew we were there. And so we decided that we needed to do something. So along with the Australian Government, Department of Veterans Affairs, the wonderful Cretan community in Melbourne and in Sydney and other Australians, we raised money to have a memorial put on 42nd Street, and it stands there in great honour.

And the Cretans have taken over and are now helping support to keep that memorial there. And it's now, if you were to go to any of the commemorations of the Battle of Crete, that's on there. There's a site to visit to go to 42nd Street during that week that they have. So that was what our family did. And we called our association the Friends of 42nd Street. We now closed the books on that because we've done what we needed to do.

But I encourage anyone that hasn't been to Crete to visit those sites and visit those wonderful people because they're amazing. They kept my father alive. They fed him, clothed him. And one of the children who took him food is over 90 and she's still alive. Amazing. She's still, 'Oh, Reggie, how's he going, Reggie?' And she's got the 'Embarrassing Australian' in her house in Crete. Yeah. Amazing.

Melina Saunders:

James, sounds like we've got to do a visit to Crete, take a new book over there. So now that 'Fighting for Country' is out in the world, what's next for the book or for your work in general?

James Saunders:

For the book, I think there's still a bit more to do in terms of promotion, helping the publisher kind of get the book out there. Events like these are really good. There's a couple of writers festivals coming up in October, one here in Canberra. Which tickets are available for people who are watching online and want to come in person. For me creatively, Glenda and I have spoken about this and not everybody's going to read 14 chapters in a book. So how can we get this story wider and more people knowing it?

So we've spoken about how to do that. And the idea of a film is something that we've thrown around. So I've got experience in filmmaking, particular documentary, but I'd love to do something with a feature film for the book, work with people, collaborate to make it happen. Yeah, that's kind of where I think a natural progression would be from this point because as I said, with each chapter, I was envisioning everything. This epic life of this incredible human and then everything that happened before and that has came after him. I think there's something really great in there for a visual story. So that could be on the cards.

Melina Saunders:

Yeah, thanks. So it sounds like this might be the beginning of this story, not the end. And I guess that's a nice segue into the last question that I have for you, Glenda. And that is, what has this process been like for you working alongside James to bring this story to life?

Glenda Humes:

Well, I got a call from the publisher saying they were interested in publishing a book about Dad. And they suggested, 'Oh, you might know someone who might want to write it. I didn't know anyone. And so I spoke to my sister Hilary, who lives in Portland in Victoria, said, 'Oh look, they might want to write a book about dad. And if we wanted a family member to do that, who would that be?'

So I put a couple of names up and Hil said, 'Oh, don't know about them. They're alright.' And then all of a sudden she said, 'What about James?' I said, 'James who?' She said, 'Oh, James Saunders, your cousin, Uncle Keith's boy.' I went, 'Can he write?' And she said, 'Well, I think he can. I've seen some of his work.' So I though, 'Alright, well, let's have a yarn to him and see if he would be interested. So we came from that point and you know what? We didn't make a mistake.

I read the first chapter of that book from James and I was sold straight away. I though this is where the beginning of this book. And so ever since then we've got to know each other better. And yeah, it's been interesting because we've been travelling a little bit together. But we did want it told by family because we thought this is a story that some parts of it only family can tell. And family needed to be able to choose what we wanted to say about our dad as well and our cousin and our uncle, and our grandfather. So most kids have, you know...I've talked to all my grannies because that's what I do and I know Hilary would've maybe spoken to hers.

And of course my sisters have been involved as well, Dorothy and Judith because there's only 4 of us left now out of the 10 children. So we've collaborated quite well together I think, in sorting out stuff that we wanted to say. And James, he's been really good. He's come visit us in Toowoomba a couple of times. He's been spoken to Hilary quite a lot. So I think that James has been really thoughtful about how he approached this book. And I think that we have been really honoured to have somebody like James tell our father's story in a way that Gunditjmara stories need to be told by Gunditjmaru people, we always say.

Melina Saunders:

Don't go getting a big head though. We'll bring you back down to earth. James, last question. So beyond buying a copy of the book today, how can people support this story, the memory of these soldiers and the broader message behind 'Fighting for Country?'

James Saunders:

There are many stories of service people that need to be told. I think supporting the stories that are already out there, but also I would want to encourage other people to tell stories, particularly from family perspectives. I think it's really important. I think there's still a bit of work to done to recognise Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people's service throughout the wars in this country and to acknowledge the Frontier Wars.
And so I would advocate for people to support people to do that, publishers, writers, researchers, work with families to help tell stories. I think it's really important. I'm 41 and my knowledge of ANZAC history was decent, but it's so much faster now. I don't want that to get lost with generations that are younger than me. I don't want the memory of our ANZACs to fade with time. I think it's going to be kept alive through the storytelling that we do for our families and for ourselves.

I think that for me is huge takeaway from the book and the thing I would like people to do is to advocate for that. Keep telling the stories, keep these memories alive because their service and what they chose to do really helped shape this nation and also gave us a lot of freedoms that we have today.

Melina Saunders:

Yeah. Great. Thank you both so much. Oh sorry, Glenda.

Glenda Humes:

I just wanted to acknowledge the role of the Australian War Memorial that they played in stories that they keep alive for not only for all Australians who served. But they've done particularly well with indigenous soldiers and sailors, and air force people as well because we never really knew how many people who were First Nations people served this country.

Because those types of stats weren't held. But that's one of the things that the AWM have been doing and I'm really quite proud of that the role that they play and the fact that they've acknowledged my father as well. And things that he got acknowledged as having a room in that memorial that no one else had ever had. He was the third person that got a room. Something named after him by the Australian War Memorial. [Unclear] have been who was absolutely amazing for the job that he did for Australian history and that.
There was somebody else and then there was Dad. I always thank them for what they did because by highlighting Reggie, they highlighted the service of our indigenous servicemen and women. So thank you for that. Thank you.

Melina Saunders:

Yeah, great. Well said. So look, I'll now open up to the floor for people if you've got a question. We do have a roving mic. Yeah, great.

Audience member 1:

Thank you for those kind words, Aunt and James. Congratulations on the book. Firstly, a comment. Melina, thank you for the rectification of the Acknowledgement of Country for the Ngunnawal people. I'm Michael Bell. I'm the Indigenous Liaison Officer at the Australian Memorial and it is an honour to be here tonight to be in the presence of this wonderful elder. But also James, your contribution to the authorship of this work.

Also, further to that comment is the Australian Memorial will be putting the Frontier Wars into the galleries in 2028. We have a team that stood up in the start of the month and we've recently had an 'Imperialism Resistance' conference. But my question is, can you talk about the significance of Uncle Reg becoming a commissioned officer at the time when the Defence Act excluded the recognition of people of non-substantive European heritage of origin in their act, that significance of that and how the implications of that recognition has impacted recognition of Aboriginal deeds and commitment to Australia moving forward?

James Saunders:

In the 'Embarrassing Australian', Harry Gordon wrote about this and there was talks in the higher ranks about the precedent that had been set by Uncle Reg having this commission rank. And when I read through that, I was a little bit shocked that that conversation was being had because by my standard, he had already proven himself. And there didn't need to be a question about a precedent set by our people.
But that informed my choices for writing in the book and setting the scene for the way that the affairs were at the time when Uncle Reg was born. But also how he was growing up and when he enlisted. And it was tricky to go into great detail because there was so many things at the time that were happening. At the time when Uncle Reg was given his commissioned officer rank, there were still groups in Australia that hadn't actually come into contact with white Australians.

So you have on one end, this man who's getting this honour and going through this process with a country that's still reconciling its colonial heritage. It was perplexing that...Glenda might want to add to this because we did speak about this quite a bit. Uncle Reg coming back to Australia and going through his trading and then going back to Papua New Guinea to serve. And then returning to Australia and being treated like that would have been very psychologically quite hard for him.

But he would have heard how Pop was treated through World War I because Pop had gone away and fought and wanted to buy a home. He didn't even want a soldier settlement at the time. Pop wanted to buy a home and was denied that right through his mother, Eliza, who's in the book. So I can't imagine what that would have been like for Uncle Reg psychologically to know what his father had been through and then to be going through that again, even though he'd come back with such a high distinction.

And at the time he would have been probably one of the most prominent Aboriginal figures in the country at the time, along with Harold Blair, who I also put in the book because we just weren't known. We weren't in the mainstream media, but he was. He was being interviewed, he had profile. Yeah. Anything to add to that?

Glenda Humes:

That's fine. I'll leave that.

Melina Saunders:

Thank you. Perhaps just while we're waiting for the next person who'd like to ask her. We've got a question I think over here. One of the things that I didn't say at the very beginning that I should have was just to acknowledge the staff here at the National Library for hosting this event. Daniel, you and your team have done an excellent job. They've been extremely welcoming.

And I know that as a non-indigenous person, sometimes getting up and delivering an Acknowledgement of Country, being corrected, take that with the spirit in which it's intended and that is a wonderful learning opportunity for you. But thank you, Michael, for that correction there because it is a very important thing for all of us that we acknowledge, that we learn, we listen and that we continually educate ourselves. Which is a very important part of even of this book and our country's history. So thank you.

Audience member 2:

Yeah, thanks James. So my question is how did you get [unclear] into the book? So it sort of seems like, I don't know your past prior to being an author, but it sort of sounds like Auntie Glenda might have sort of picked you out of a hat and said, 'Righto way you go.' How did that sort of come about?

James Saunders:

Yeah, look, I wanted to meet Glenda many years ago and we didn't get the opportunity to. This is in Sydney a very long time ago when I was in my early 20s. And Hilary contacted me and said, 'Look, Glenda and I want to jump on FaceTime with you on a Facebook video call.' And I was like, 'Alright.' She's like, 'We want to talk to you about this opportunity.' And I said, 'Oh, sure.'

And so I got to meet Glenda on the call and I was quite excited because it was Uncle Reg's daughter. And they spoke to me about doing this and the timing of it was really interesting. Because I'd just come off filming over in Western Australia in the Pilbara with the Banjima people, filming a documentary film. And I had a little bit of time. I had this period where I wasn't so busy and I though, well, this is an opportunity.

And I really felt a really big sense of duty to Uncle Reg and his direct descendants to do this story. But there's also my father and my uncles and, aunties in the back of my mind. And my grandfather who I never got to meet. And also Mabel Arden who passed away way too young, Uncle Reg's mother, who's in a beautiful photo here with Uncle Reg's little boy with Pop. I just felt a sense of duty to do it. And I had the time and capacity. And I thought, I want to take this on even though I knew it was going to be big, I knew it was going to be daunting. I knew I was going to struggle and go through all the things, but that sense of duty really came over me and I thought I want to do this. Yeah.

Glenda Humes:

And Hilary and I had quite a conversation about James and because she knew James better than I did, I think. So I was really not too sure until we had some more discussions. And then I think we met in Sydney with my grandson who was at school here and it was great. Then we thought, 'God, he looks like the Saunders mob and he acts like them. He's got the same funny sense of humour that they have.'

And I also felt that he had this strength in him as well. And that reminded me a lot of my dad, that inner strength. And that was to show up later. I mean, he didn't tell you how many red crosses or red lines he had through all his work, the first draught, and all of that. But he had the strength and the courage to keep going. And I really admired that and that showed me that that's how we Saunders go.

We go through hard times, it might be tough, but we come out the other end. And so I could see James often get calls from him too, Hilary would as well. I'm sure his sisters did and his mother. But he really kept going and it wasn't easy because he was dealing with people who didn't know Dad, didn't understand Aboriginal culture.

Well, that's what we thought and the way that we wanted to tell our story. But he was able to convince them of that. And actually he got him on side because he kept saying, 'This is what we needed to do and this is how we do it.' And the story started to unfold and then they could see it all. And now Tom who did a lot of work with James is really, he's on our side now and he always will be, which is good. We're really happy. So it was through a lot of trauma for all of us. It was difficult to though, 'Oh God, don't rule out, stay strong.' And he did. And I'm really proud of you, James, really proud.

Audience member 3:

Hi everybody. It's a bit weird asking a question. I normally ring you up as my cousin. For the purpose of transparency, they are my cousins. And the question, the book for James and Glenda, the book in its form is complete now. The artistic process is done. What's something at the end of it, the wash up is, what's something that you learned about Uncle Reg or Dad, Uncle Reg, Dad for you Glenda, that maybe was a surprise during that process? And is there anything perhaps you would've liked to have included in the book that's not in the book? So it's two questions.

Glenda Humes:

Well, I learned that he had resilience. I always knew that he had it, but it really shone that resilience that he had. He really didn't let anything get him down. He was still able to do some great work with Aboriginal people across this nation. Particularly after the '67 Referendum where the Commonwealth had to start taking responsibility for Aboriginal affairs. And then they had to count us and then provide services to us.

And that's where we saw the great growth of Aboriginal community organisations throughout Australia after that Referendum. It's a very positive move for us because it changed our lives, both in how we seek legal services in particular and how we approached health. Which is a major issue for us because our life expectancy is still lower than anyone else in this country.

And he was a part of all of that. And he was also a part of growing Aboriginal people in the department where he worked. He would tell them young fellows there, 'This is how you dress when you come to work. You turn up, you do this, you do that.' And that's how he lived his life. And when I went to work there after I think he had retired and I went to work there, they would come up and when they learned that I was his daughter, they'd come say, 'Look, your father taught me this, your father taught me that.' And they were always very respectful to dad about that. So those things I think flow through and we do that with our children and our grandchildren, that they have a legacy and it's important that they respect that and respond to that in a positive way.

James Saunders:

Yeah. When I looked at Uncle Reg's military record and I looked at the things he'd experienced and how he was able to go over to foreign countries and fight and kill people. I thought he was a tough guy. And when I heard yarns when I was a kid, I thought this guy's tough. We knew all these stories as young boys. My brothers and I would hear this particularly from a father.

But through the process of the book and through getting to know him through his daughters, I got to see a side of Uncle Reg that it did surprise me a little bit because he was quite a loving human being and he loved his kids. And there's a chapter in the book that speaks about the two families. And one amazing thing he did was still able to go between two families and try to be in their lives and provide for them even though he didn't have a lot. And it would have been really difficult, 10 children and the 2 wives.

And we didn't have a lot of rights and services back then, but he was doing that. And that showed me a side of him that I don't think the rest of the population had seen. So I wanted to bring that in because I though that it was really good to show, yes Aboriginal men can be tough and strong. But we also can have the tenderness and the loving side and that can be a strength as well. Yeah. Good question guys.

Audience member 4:

James, there's just this beautiful scene in your book where Reg is commanding a unit of white troops in Korea and then marching down the road is a, I think it's a coloured unit that was referred to in the book led by a white American officer. And the coloured unit just can't believe their eyes really at Reg leading this group. And one of the men says, 'Sir, I think they're amazed that you have dark skin.' And he says, 'They'll get used to it.' And I just thought that was such a wonderful scene that just keeps going through my mind. I wonder how you heard that story.

James Saunders:

Yeah, that story I think came through from Glenda, sorry, from Hilary. Hilary had spoken to me about that because Hilary, she got to live with her father here in Canberra. And Hilary, she went through her activist days. And when she was telling me that, there's actually a photo in here. There's a few photos in here where you'll see Uncle Reg, and he's the only black fellow with all his white fellas.

There's also a photo of Pop here, Pop sitting on the ground and he's the only black fellow in the photo as well. And it was so incredible that through these two generations that they were the black fellas, Pop sitting right at the front. He wasn't a leader by command, but he was a leader by showing up. And I thought that was quite amazing at the time, Pop and then Uncle Reg. And I think it just really spoke to who they were as men and as people and also how they were respected.

And it showed the difference, I think between us here and the US and how they went about things, and how we did. And I think the military here has done that for our people. I think that for the people who have served, I think they've found a sense of comradery and mateship that is not replicated so much in broader Australian society. We see it sometimes as sport maybe and in the workplace, but outside of that, I feel like the country can still feel quite segregated in so many ways, which is so disappointing. But yeah, it was a great snapshot and it's something I had to include in the book.

Audience member 5:

I'm a retired school teacher, and in the last few years that I was teaching, I became aware that the staff and the community around the school knew very little about Aboriginal people or affairs or anything, really. And so I started an indigenous insights. Now, I say straight from the start that I'm non-indigenous, indeed I'm English. But I started this indigenous insights and wrote a weekly sort of a magazine. It was 4 pages, 5 pages and distributed it throughout the staff and the community that was around our school.

On one instance, and part of that indigenous insights was to profile an indigenous person. It was not to profile a sports person. It was to profile somebody that people would not have heard of or knew about. And one of them happened to be Reg Saunders. And I wrote about 2 pages on him, not a lot because people won't read it otherwise. But part of that process was that I was also in charge of the indigenous children within our school. And on one occasion, maybe two occasions, I took a group of children, 15 to 20 children, to the ANZAC Memorial behind ANZAC, behind the War Memorial. You know where it is.

Yes. So I took them up there and well, they had a wonderful time because they could scramble over the rocks and all things like that, that children love to do. But part of that process was the little service that I produced was to read Reg Saunders' story from what I had written. This was the first time those children had ever heard of Reg Saunders, of course.

Somebody over here said something about where to from here. I'm just wondering if it would be at all possible to reduce your beautiful story down to a child's level where children, Aboriginal children and children and white children in schools, and indeed all children in schools would be able to read about Reg Saunders as a person who fought in the war, who helped their country, who provided the freedom that exists today for them. Would that be something that you might consider?

James Saunders:

Actually, that resource actually exists. They did that, I think back in 2009 or 2010. There is a children's book that does speak about Uncle Reg's story that's been done. I just don't know if it's widely printed and circulated as much as it was. But there is something available that I think you can still buy online. So that does exist. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that story. That's beautiful.

Melina Saunders:

So look, I think just in closing, one of the things I just wanted to kind of acknowledge and look, bear with me because it may sound a little bit weird. But Glenda, in thinking about you and your sisters and your role in this book, James has talked a lot about our kind of upbringing and growing up with Uncle Reg is somebody who was a fantastic role model. For me though, certainly you were that for me.

And I often think of, for those of you who watch 'The Simpsons', there's a 'Simpsons' episode where Lisa is feeling a little bit depressed about the Simpsons lineage and Marge goes and does some research and she brings out all of the Simpson women, who have done really incredible things with their lives.

And I often think of that and even hearing you talk this evening, that strength and that resilience and that leadership that your dad had, it's so evident in you. And I feel very, very privileged to be part of a very strong line of Saunders women who I know. Their stories and their voices are often untold, but they are just as important. So thank you so much for all of this.

Daniel Gleeson:

Thank you so much James, Melina and Auntie Glenda for that just really wonderful conversation. If this event has inspired you to look into your own family history, then we're better placed to start than just here at the National Library. Our staff are standing by to help you in our family history zone upstairs in the Main Reading Room.

And of course, if you can't be in Canberra, we've got Trove. We do have James' book available upstairs in our Bookshop. So if you're lucky enough, I'm sure James, if you were to buy one, James will sign it for you. He signed mine, which is great. What a wonderful evening. Please join with me once again in thanking James, Melina and Auntie Glenda.